Thanks to Pope Francis I'm No Longer a 'Neo-Catholic'

The Remnant ^ | March 22, 2017 | Petra Perkov

[Bua ar la]

Climb down off your pedestal, and quit your lecturing, I am neither your student nor your enemy. Think the next time you bash a Catholic because you’re bashing a believer even though I am sure you’ve found a scriptural reference to refute the fact that Catholics are Christians - OC’S BY THE WAY, ORIGINAL CHRISTIANS. AGAIN, STOP A MINUTE A READ WHAT YOU WRITE, YOU CLEARLY DON’T UNDERSTAND A WORD YOU SAY. Find someone else to annoy.

[SubMareener]

Read Revelation 1 again. Jesus actually explains John’s vision of the seven lamp stands as the seven churches. Separate lamp stands are not branches. I know that people have drawn branching diagrams for the denominations, but these additions are not necessary.

[Lazamataz]

Why do you hate Jesus?

[SubMareener]

Please point out one thing that I wrote that I don’t understand.

[FourtySeven]

I’m glad this person has started to take his faith more seriously. I too pretty much mirrored this person’s path. Here’s something I’ve discovered that may save this person some time and hassle (if he may read this):

First I started off as a cradle Catholic then skipped the CINO stage he apparently went through. I went straight to atheism for 10 years then “got saved” (March 16, 1999 by the way) and limped along looking for a “local church” for a couple years after that. I spent the time reading the Bible mostly to “win” theological arguments on the Internet.

Then when I got serious about finding a “local assembly”, because I had become convinced at the time it was necessary to “assemble with like minded individuals”, I started looking for a church, anyone, that could trace its lineage back to the time of Christ because, I reckoned, that church would be able to speak authoritatively about what the Bible really says. Because I had spent 2 years arguing with people on the Internet about predestination speaking in tongues, whether or not women can be pastors and the Trinity. Mostly on Paltalk. And the debates weren’t going anywhere.

At a certain point I came to the realization we need someone to put these questions to rest or else Christianity will never be anything but a debate society.

Well to make that long story short (too late right?) I came to realize that at least historically speaking, the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church and the Coptic Church can do such a trace. Well I decided the Catholic Church was the best out of those three for other reasons I won’t get into here.

Suffice to say, I started to dive into my faith with a passion, becoming more and more “traditional” with each passing month. (And this is the point I think the author of this piece is at).

But you know what I discovered? That one thing non-Catholic Christians are right about is that everyone needs a personal relationship with Jesus, and that’s easy to say and doesn’t really mean much unless it’s real. So I’ll say it another way.

We all need a way that we can encounter Christ in reality, every day and not just as a theory or some theological construct but a real man encountered, every day. Because that’s who we’re made for. We’re made for God. To be with Him. Not some idea we can put in a box or a shelf and made to look pretty but is nothing more than a museum piece.

No we’re made for the Man who became flesh and dwells among us. He’s risen and in the world and wants a real relationship, like the one you have with your friend or coworker or parents or children. That kind of relationship not some idea or nice feeling. So there will be some rough spots (where you will realize how wrong you are since He is never wrong, but you’ll still get angry with Him sometimes because we are all petulant children on occasion and that’s real). That’s the kind of real He wants not some fancy moralism not some brilliant argument but a relationship that stinks sometimes but is surrounded and defeated by His Love.

And that’s what the Catholic Church gives me now, not by reading some dusty old book and arguing theology about it but by reading Scripture attentively expecting Him to talk to me through them.

Not by viewing the “liberals” in the Church with contempt or scorn but by meeting them where they are at and again, expecting that God will be part of such encounters through them (to teach me something) and hopefully through myself (to benefit them).

Not by being the best “traddy” on the block (or the Internet) but by realizing the Church Universal isn’t best by being “traditional” OR “liberal” (whatever those terms mean anyway) but that She is at Her best when all her members live truly human. Which means actually interacting with people (yuck! Right?)! But yeah that’s what it means and not just the people I like but actually interacting with people I disagree with, and not only treating them with respect but actually expecting to learn something from such interactions.

Which is why it’s necessary to have a real relationship with Jesus. It’s really the only way the Church is truly the “Mystical Body of Christ”. When we live in cooperation with Him, when we allow Him to make us fully human.

It’s the only way to “save” the Church.

[SkyPilot]

I love the anti- Catholic rants, and that’s exactly what they are because first you don’t even understand what Catholic means

Oh believe me, I do know what Catholic means.

I was baptized and raised in the Catholic faith, I was an altar boy, I went through First Communion, Confirmation, CCD all through school, I thought about becoming a priest in high school and even visited a Catholic seminary, I was married in the church, I went to confession, I went to Mass every week and sometimes every day, I went on many Catholic retreats, I said the rosary, I had prayer cards, I wore medals of saints.....all of it.

I was very good at being "Catholic", but I knew nothing about was it meant to give my life to Jesus and accept salvation. It was not until I was in my 30's that I understood.

If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Romans 10: 9-10

I once asked a priest, "How can I be sure I am going to heaven?"

Do you know what he told me? He stammered, and after a long while, he said:

"Well, that is a Great Mystery."

I know I am going to heaven. I have been bought by the precious blood of Jesus Christ. I have been born again into God's family. I am saved by Grace, through Faith. And no one can snatch me from His hand.

[Melian]

Love it. I asked a very old, dedicated, humble priest once what he thought about the direction the Church was going. He replied, “I don’t spend a minute worrying about the Church. The Holy Spirit is still in charge and is still leading the Church.”

It gave me great peace to hear those words then— and now.

The weak and fallible humans are always a cause for concern, but the glacier of the Church, so massive under the surface, floats on... and it will until the end of time. The faithful remnant will survive. God told us so.

[Melian]

Me too. And beyond! As long as the Mass is still celebrated faithfully, I will be there. And we know that will happen until the End Times because Christ prayed that it would and said the Church would last until the end.

Never could be any other spiritual home for me but the original.

[Melian]

I think the seven letters were to His Church on the seven continents. There are seven continents, you know. His Church will spread the whole Earth.

This is what happens when you read the Bible with an agenda of disliking Catholics. If you read with a mind open to other than that, you will see there is an obvious answer.

Christ prayed for unity for HIS Church. His perfect prayer would always be granted. Protestantism is not unified. Therefore, it is not Christ’s Church. Man created Protestantism. Those of us with the oil in our lamps have been faithfully waiting for Christ in the Catholic Church since Day One. Just as He told us to do.

[SubMareener]

The key thing is to actually read the Bible! That way you will know that the letters are to the seven churches in Asia. They were real places and we actually know where they are.

There are those who see a resemblance between the churches and the progression of the church structure during the past two thousand years. The Church established by Constantine is the corrupt church and the church established by Luther is the dead church. Read them again and see what you think.

It never ceases to amaze me how Catholics seem to think that any actual discussion of the Bible is an attack on the Catholic Church, while they blithely accept the Liberation Theology proclaimed by the current Pope.

[Melian]

I’m not sure what you think you know about Catholics but we do read the Bible. Often. And when we speak of Revelations we know that the writing is divinely inspired to be true for the times it was written and true for all times.

The seven Churches, a blessed number, is also interpreted to be about the seven continents, meaning the whole world that has finally heard the Gospel. It’s the fulfillment of the mandate Christ gave the Apostles to spread the word to all men. A Church instituted by Christ, prayed for by Christ himself, would never be corrupt. The flawed humans, from Peter and Thomas to today, are always with us. But the teachings Christ gave us are intact and we still abide by them.

We agree about Luther.

[daniel1212]

I love the anti- Catholic rants, and that’s exactly what they are because first you don’t even understand what Catholic means - look it up. Add to that this; Matthew 16:17-19 -“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven. 18And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it. 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

Actually the meaning of that very verse saw different interpretations among so-called "church fathers," while the church began by division, and the unity it had was under clearly manifest apostles of God, who established their Truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, not the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults).

But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses, In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings; By pureness, by knowledge, by longsuffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned, By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, (2 Corinthians 6:4-7)

And Scripture commands division:

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? (2 Corinthians 6:14)

Thus division is both required and a judgment for not having leadership of apostolic quality, and Rome's so-called apostolic successors fail of the qualifications and credentials of manifest Biblical apostles. (Acts 1:21,22; 1Cor. 9:1; Gal. 1:11,12; 2Co. 6:4-10)

Has it ever occurred to you that Christ said build my Church - not 1500 different versions of my Church, wake up and stop slamming fellow Christians and begin a new day of gathering together all the disparate denominational variants in the Christian Church that must make be almost unrecognizable to the One that matters.

Actually as daily seen here, Catholicism itself is fragmented, from papal loyalists to those who exclude all modern popes from being so, besides division from the EOs.

Meanwhile, among the laity where what a church effects is manifest, evangelicals testify to being the most unified in conservative core beliefs, in contrast to those Rome counts and treats as members in life and in death. You can only wish 80% of Catholics would vote for the conservative Presidential candidate.

[Old Yeller]

I’m not sure what you think you know about Catholics but we do read the Bible. Often. And when we speak of Revelations we know that the writing is divinely inspired to be true for the times it was written and true for all times.

You better get a different Bible. It's Revelation. Not Revelations.

[daniel1212]

I have been Catholic all my life and will remain so until until every priest from every pulpit starts spewing politically Leftist thought.

Scripture commands

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, (2 Corinthians 6:14-17)

There may not be much too choose from in many places, but since the distinctives of Rome are not even seen in the record of the NT church then being born again and finding a sound church is needed.

[daniel1212]

to all who are making this trek toward the Catholic Church...

Which version? As seen on FR, we have those which hold that since (they believe) the papacy is protected from teaching error, but that Francis and modern popes do, then such are not true popes.

Then we have those who hold modern popes as being valid but dissent from parts of V2 and modern teaching.

Then you have others who reject certain past historical teachings which those in the first and second class look to as contrasting certain modern teachings, and think modern teaching is the way to go.

Then you have perhaps the majority of Catholics who disagree with their church quite often.

Then you have those somewhere btwn these basic classes, while those in the conservative group excommunicate those in the latter, and some of those in the latter do the same to the former.

Yet except in extreme manifest cases Rome treats them all as members in life and in death, from those who hate Francis to those who like like he is a rock star,

Meanwhile Catholics tell conservative evangelicals that they need the pope, and to join Rome, the invisible church in Scripture, and which would make them brethren with liberals they already left behind to become unified with evangelicals.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Has it ever occurred to you that Christ said build my Church - not 1500 different versions of my Church, wake up and stop slamming fellow Christians and begin a new day of gathering together all the disparate denominational variants in the Christian Church that must make be almost unrecognizable to the One that matters.

This is a very common, earth-bound, and worldly view of what the Church actually is.

It is false. The universal church is comprised of all who have entrusted themselves to Christ alone for salvation.

As to multiple "churches..."

"IN ESSENTIALS UNITY, IN NON-ESSENTIALS LIBERTY, IN ALL THINGS CHARITY."

[Salvation]

There is only one Catholic Church. There are different rites, but it is still the same Mass and the same Eucharist.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"There is only one Catholic Church. There are different rites, but it is still the same Mass and the same Eucharist."

There is only one Universal Church. There are different rites, but it is still the same Christ and the same Body.

[daniel1212]

There is only one Catholic Church. There are different rites, but it is still the same Mass and the same Eucharist.

Which mantra means that unity is to be defined based upon a few core Truths, despite allegiances to different leaders and class of teachings, thereby making evangelicals unified in contrast to RC charges.

[boatbums]

Actually the meaning of that very verse saw different interpretations among so-called "church fathers," while the church began by division, and the unity it had was under clearly manifest apostles of God, who established their Truth claims upon Scriptural substantiation in word and in power, not the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome (and basically in primary cults).

I've been pondering on these points recently and I think the assertions by some that they are the "true" church and others are not is an argument that was dealt with all the way back to the first century. Why else did Paul bring up:

Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not mere human beings?

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.

By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as a wise builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should build with care. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames. Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst? If anyone destroys God’s temple, God will destroy that person; for God’s temple is sacred, and you together are that temple. Do not deceive yourselves. If any of you think you are wise by the standards of this age, you should become “fools” so that you may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”; and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.” So then, no more boasting about human leaders! All things are yours, whether Paul or Apollos or Cephas or the world or life or death or the present or the future—all are yours, and you are of Christ, and Christ is of God. (I Corinthians 3)

God's word teaches us that it is IMMATURITY that is behind the prideful boasts of who follows whom. If it is not Jesus Christ - THE rock, then we are not being obedient servants.