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Locked on 03/18/2017 12:24:33 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childish personal comments |
Posted on 03/13/2017 8:58:52 AM PDT by ebb tide
While I disagree with Protestant antinomianism, I agree that it is illogical in the extreme to abolish an entire G-d-ordained legal, ritual, and ceremonial system and then to complain about Protestant antinomianism. If there truly is a legal/ritual/ceremonial system still in effect, it is the original one that came directly from the Mouth of G-d at Sinai . . . not some completely new one that "replaced" it (G-d forbid!).
Protestantism began with chrstianity itself. Too bad Catholic/Orthodox chrstians seem unable to grasp that fact.
“In other words you can’t explain how you’re attempting to use Scripture to justify your tagline. Got it.”
No. First of all, I didn’t attempt to use Scripture to justify my tagline. I used Scripture to justify my tagline. There was no attempt. There was only accomplishment. Second, I could explain further but I see no point in doing so for three reasons: 1) I’m not at your beck and call and that post wasn’t to you in the first place. 2) It’s obvious and no further explanation should be necessary. 3) I can only conclude that this is yet another example of an anti-Catholic’s line of questioning with no serious point but to endlessly post about a non-point in desperate search of something to attack a Catholic over. If this goes as it usually does, an anti-Catholic will either 1) keep posting endlessly about how I won’t reply to him in a way he wishes (and his posts will be ever increasingly plaintive ones) or 2) the anti-Catholic will pull the almost classic taking-my-ball-and-going-home nonsense.
I just assume post how I want to post, when I want to post, about what I want to post, and I don’t care if it bothers the anti-Catholic. All I have to do is follow the board rules, of course.
St. Paul writes, in Romans 3:28 “For we hold that a person is justified by faith apart from works prescribed by the law.”
This is the verse to which Luther added the word “alone” after the word faith in his German translation. There is simply no basis in the Greek text for this translation and the addition seems arbitrary, if not intentional, to bolster his novel doctrine of sola fide.
Within a very short space of time, we quickly find our differences, magnify them and then let our egos go to work on each other.
These ensuing battles and our score cards become the fruit which we then offer up to the one we actually serve while in the heat of those moments.
We Christians argue over words, but are specifically told not to.
We Christians fight like Cains over the mantle of Abel, while cherishing the belief that the winner will be the rightful and rational heir to Abel's throne.
Note that I said "We".
I wish I could point my fingers at the worst offenders in these discussions and say it's "Them". My ego would love that! But, that would be a lie.
The truth is, in each and every discussion, the Holy Spirit, should I ever choose to listen to Him, is telling me to shut up and find Him in silence.
Boring...what fun is that? My ego would rather catch someone in a misstep, beat them into submission with it, and then win the argument for me and my team!
Unfortunately for my ego, Proverbs is a mirror that's loaded with advice for my ego, who of course is not at all interested unless the advice helps it "win the fight".
By their fruits, by their works, ye shall know them and the works of a rational ego are not the same as those of a believing, faithful Christian.
In fact, the ego will tell you its stuff is better! So...Fight! Fight!! Fight!!!
Of course ealgeone can rightfully respond to you on this. You are addressing that tagline insult to ealgeone as much as you are to everyone else. And ealgeone is correctly saying that you attempted to justify it through Scripture but haven’t done so. What’s more, you’ve not only made your tagline a personal attack on everyone who reads it, but you’re breaking the rules by calling an individual poster an “anti-Catholic.”
http://www.freerepublic.com/~religionmoderator/
If we are not saved by faith in Christ and only Christ how else does one achieve salvation? See Ephesians 2:8-9.
Wow. Just. Wow.
Self certainly can be a part of these conversations, leading to what the Bible describes in so many words as vain competition and making another person one’s enemy to be defeated, rather than seeing them as someone being held captive to error and who might be counselled to recognize the truth.
On the other hand, even in the time of the Apostles, false teaching was being put out by professing Christians, as the Lord Himself warned would happen, and the Apostles strove to expose it and the false teachers in no uncertain terms, even using condemning language. Two thousands years on means two thousands years of interpretation, Christians living out their faith, and of invention, including false invention. Christians shouldn’t believe that those who oppose them somehow in belief or interpretation are necessarily enemies to be defeated, or deliberate false teachers. Someone could even have a point. But it is important to have these discussions, which is essentially teaching, to counter false teaching.
The danger here is not recognizing that it could be Me, my Self and I who is in error.
The real danger is that it's not the other person who is being held captive to error, but rather it is me who is not only held captive in error, but has then added condemnation by my hypocrisy, which the Holy Spirit would show me if my ego would get out of the way.
I would see this in others, but would somehow think I was clean and pure and right. What a hoot!
Fact is,
You're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.Instead,
--Obi-Wan Kenobi
Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.But we don't, which is why there are so many versions of Him.
Proverbs 3:5
Whatever was in his heart, Luther opened the doors to whatever version we each like best.
Personally, I think we're all in for quite a surprise.
There is only one version of Christ....right? He doesn’t change.
It is we humans who have field dressed Him and put the pieces we like best into individual boxes of our own design.
It's our way. It's in our nature, especially now in our times.
Inevitably, it's how we've written our times' part of the ongoing story we were born into.
Now we are stuck here fighting in this mosh pit of our righteous division, waiting for the Referee to separate us sinning sinners into one flock.
We're not ready. We're not worthy, and we're certainly not in His Ways wise.
Instead, I think we're in for quite a surprise, when He shows each and everyone of us our selves as seen through His Eyes.
I read about such an event coming up "soon".
“You are addressing that tagline insult to ealgeone as much as you are to everyone else.”
It’s not directed to everyone and I don’t mind if everyone takes it as directed to them.
“And ealgeone is correctly saying that you attempted to justify it through Scripture but haven’t done so.”
No, actually he is in error. I made no attempt. There was only accomplishment.
“What’s more, you’ve not only made your tagline a personal attack on everyone who reads it,”
That’s false.
“but you’re breaking the rules by calling an individual poster an “anti-Catholic.””
If there is a rule against calling an anti-Catholic an anti-Catholic, then I have, in fact, violated it without intentionally doing so. Feel free to alert the religion forum moderator.
You’re a legend in your own mind.
There is much to be learned by reading on to verse 10:
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God— 9 not the result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are what he has made us, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand to be our way of life.
What is noteworthy upon reflection is how verse 10 clarifies the two preceding verses. When it is included in proper context, we see that works are not antithetical to faith, but rather, the necessary “outworking” of it. In verse 8 and 9, St. Paul is stressing the ‘first cause’ of grace and faith, and the futility of mere human works not preceded by grace.
But in verse 10 he teaches that good works ordained by God, and always proceeding from His grace, are equally part of salvation and justification. The whole passage is more in accord with Catholic both-and thinking than with the Protestant sola perspective.
Disagree with the last part for without faith your good works are nothing but filthy rags.
You can do good works and not be saved.
If you look at how the Greek is in this section it is evident that all of this flows from God. He has made the provision for our salvation. There is nothing we can do to be "good enough" to earn our salvation.
I do agree though, that once a person professes Christ, there is to be fruit produced. I believe that is abundantly clear in the NT.
A believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit. I find no texts in the NT that ever say the believer is unsealed.
When the believer saves saved by faith and faith alone he is not saying, "I believe" and that's it. If you believe what Christ says, you will do what Christ says.
That's Christianity.
“You can do good works and not be saved.”
What part of “both/and” is so hard to understand.
Where have works alone ever been presented as sufficient?
“A believer is sealed by the Holy Spirit. I find no texts in the NT that ever say the believer is unsealed.”
Here’s a few:
James 2:14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and lacks daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace; keep warm and eat your fill,” and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? 17 So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead.
James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. 20 Do you want to be shown, you senseless person, that faith apart from works is barren? 21 Was not our ancestor Abraham justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was brought to completion by the works. 23 Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God.
James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 Likewise, was not Rahab the prostitute also justified by works when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another road? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is also dead.
Furthermore, Salvation is not guaranteed. Scripture says we can lose our salvation and that perseverance is even required to enter heaven.
1 Corinthians 9:27 but I punish my body and enslave it, so that after proclaiming to others I myself should not be disqualified.
2 Timothy 2:12 if we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he will also deny us;
Philippians 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed me, not only in my presence, but much more now in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13 for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure.
“You’re a legend in your own mind.”
No, I just generally get things correct. It was you who mistakenly said that we have “the original texts to compare our translations to” and then “to clarify” you made what might very well be another mistake by saying “we have the original languages to compare our texts to.”
It is you attempting to use scripture to justify your handle. Your’s is the greater error. Not that you’d ever see or admit that.
Illogic argument. Corruption can just as easily arise in new systems as old. The new systems usually have different forms of corruption
The RCC veered off into error which it has not admitted to...yet.
The catholic is blind to this error though somehow justifying idols of Mary in contradiction of scripture, a priesthood not exhibited in the NT, belief that Jesus is re-sacrificed over and over again in contradiction to scripture, penance, and the list goes on and on.
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