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To: Springfield Reformer
Who is right? John or Paul?

They are both right, and the LORD Jesus is right. Fear, love, and obey.
1,127 posted on 01/19/2017 9:03:31 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
They are both right, and the LORD Jesus is right. Fear, love, and obey.

No, they cannot all be right IF fear (Greek phobos) has the exact same meaning in all three cases, because that would be a contradiction in Scripture, and that is impossible.

On the one hand, John says there is no fear in love. Yet clearly the reception given Titus was one of love. Therefore, fear in the sense John meant it cannot have been a factor. Else Scripture is broken, and Scripture cannot be broken.

Faith is not a call to mental suicide. You cannot have A and Not A be true at the same time and the same way. The law of non-contradiction is applicable even to Scripture.

But there is an easy solution. John speaks of the kind of fear associated with punishment. "Torment" as it is in the English. It is the dread of judgment. Once there is love, one does not live in dread of judgment. But there is another kind of fear, and it has nothing to do with the dread of judgment, but the sense is closer to "respect," or "reverence," which may involve some trembling, but NOT the torment of worrying about eternal damnation. So Titus is loved, and reverenced, but that same love removes any dread of judgment. There is no contradiction. "There is no fear in love." John said it. I believe it. Do you?

As for "perfect" love, the Greek word for "perfect" (teleioo) as John uses it here is not about flawlessness but about something accomplishing it's purpose. And clearly in that sense it can and does apply to us merely mortal, imperfect believers, as John says, this "Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment." This is not the image of living in dread of some overlooked mistake that will cost you your soul come the day. This is the compassionate John encouraging believers in Jesus that they have nothing to fear come the day of judgment, but can enter into that day with boldness. As well they should. The price has already been paid. We do not live in dread of punishment, the torment of the possibly damned. We live in the joyful expectation of a spectacular reception into the heavenly home and loving arms of the One who died for our sins.

Peace,

SR
1,130 posted on 01/19/2017 10:05:46 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: af_vet_1981
Fear, love, and obey.


John 6:28-29

Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”

1,146 posted on 01/20/2017 4:06:37 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: af_vet_1981

Luke Chapter 16   (Jesus is teaching here...)

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’

25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’

27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’

30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’

31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

1,147 posted on 01/20/2017 4:10:11 AM PST by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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