Replies

"It is very clear to me"

...That is the problem. Instead of trying to find a pre-existing belief, you would be better off going to the Scriptures to see what they actually teach, then believing God.

In Revelation 5:8 John saw the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on a throne in the midst of four beasts and 24 elders. When the Lamb took the book with the seven seals, the 24 elders fell down before the Lamb in worship, “each one having a harp and golden bowls of incenses, which are the prayers of the saints.”

...A brief examination of this passage demonstrates that your claims are not found here.

Incense, which symbolizes the prayers of the saints.
Elders carry the bowls of incense.
They don't pray.
They don't receive prayers. They carry the bowls.
There is no Scriptural statement as to where the prayers come from - other than contextual.
There is no Scriptural statement that the carrier knows the content of the prayers.
There is no Scriptural statement that the carrier was prayed to by Christians on earth.
The Elders carry harps - they do not play them.
The Elders carry incense to symbolize prayers - they do not pray them.
There are exactly 24 Elders who carry out these actions - no saint is mentioned specifically.
The vials of incense symbolize the prayers of God’s people, as they do elsewhere in Scripture (Ps. 141:2; Luke 1:10).
This does not mean that Christians on earth can access believers now in heaven.

Similarly, in Revelation 8:3-4

... exactly. It is similar in that none of your claims are found in this passage. In this instance, it is an angel carrying the incense and prayers. Not a saint.

What is pictured in Revelation is Worship in Heaven of the Lamb of God - not a prayer-forwarding service.

You can advise daniel to respond to the specific scripture so that he does not go off with his personal opinion and the false statement of the non believer about the quoted words of Jesus Christ in the Bible that one needs to eat His Body and Blood for eternal life.

... As it turns out, I can no more advise dear br'er Daniel1212, than I can advise you! I will point out that he actually documented his belief from Scripture, over and over. You have not.

Best to you.

Incense, which symbolizes the prayers of the saints. Elders carry the bowls of incense. They don't pray. They don't receive prayers. They carry the bowls. There is no Scriptural statement as to where the prayers come from - other than contextual. There is no Scriptural statement that the carrier knows the content of the prayers. There is no Scriptural statement that the carrier was prayed to by Christians on earth. The Elders carry harps - they do not play them. The Elders carry incense to symbolize prayers - they do not pray them. There are exactly 24 Elders who carry out these actions - no saint is mentioned specifically. The vials of incense symbolize the prayers of God’s people, as they do elsewhere in Scripture (Ps. 141:2; Luke 1:10). This does not mean that Christians on earth can access believers now in heaven.

But Scripture only consists of and means what Rome (or RCs) says it does. Hence the appeal to the fallacious "we gave you the Bible" polemic.

Perhaps we should start with the basics.

Prayer (Gk. euchesthai, Lat. precari, Fr. prier, to plead, to beg, to ask earnestly), an act of the virtue of religion which consists in asking proper gifts or graces from God. In a more general sense it is the application of the mind to Divine things, not merely to acquire a knowledge of them but to make use of such knowledge as a means of union with God. This may be done by acts of praise and thanksgiving, but petition is the principal act of prayer. The words used to express it in Scripture are: to call upon (Gen., iv, 26); to intercede (Job, xxii, 10); to meditate (Is., liii, 10); to consult (I Kings, xxviii, 6); to beseech (Ex., xxxii, 11); and, very commonly, to cry out to. The Fathers speak of it as the elevation of the mind to God with a view to asking proper things from Him (St. John Damascene, “De fide”, III, xxiv, in P.G., XCIV, 1090); communing and conversing with God (St. Gregory of Nyssa, “De oratione dom.”, in P.G., XLIV, 1125); talking with God (St. John Chrysostorn, “Horn. xxx in Gen.”, n. 5, in P.G., LIII, 280). It is therefore the expression of our desires to God whether for ourselves or others. This expression is not intended to instruct or direct God what to do, but to appeal to His goodness for the things we need; and the appeal is necessary, not because He is ignorant of our needs or sentiments, but to give definite form to our desires, to concentrate our whole attention on what we have to recommend to Him, to help us appreciate our close personal relation with Him. The expression need not be external or vocal; internal or mental is sufficient.

St. John Damascene gave a classic definition of prayer: “Prayer is the raising of one’s mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God” (CCC, no. 2559, citing St. John Damascene, De Fide Orth. 3, 24).

The Catechism clearly defines prayer as a “vital and personal relationship with the living and true God” (CCC, no. 2558). Prayer is Christian “insofar as it is communion with Christ” (CCC, no. 2565), and a “covenant relationship between God and man in Christ” (CCC, no. 2564).

Prayer comes in many forms: formal, informal singing,talking, with incense, adoration, as a group, through liturgy of the Mass, through the Body of the Church, non verbal, et al.

I am sorry that you do not understand or accept the words of the Bible and the teachings of His Church about the benefit of the intercession of the saints to deliver our prayers to God. But then, most non Catholics do not accept the words of Jesus about the need to consume HIS BODY and HIS BLOOD for eternal life.

Peace be with you.