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To: aMorePerfectUnion

Perhaps we should start with the basics.

Prayer (Gk. euchesthai, Lat. precari, Fr. prier, to plead, to beg, to ask earnestly), an act of the virtue of religion which consists in asking proper gifts or graces from God. In a more general sense it is the application of the mind to Divine things, not merely to acquire a knowledge of them but to make use of such knowledge as a means of union with God. This may be done by acts of praise and thanksgiving, but petition is the principal act of prayer. The words used to express it in Scripture are: to call upon (Gen., iv, 26); to intercede (Job, xxii, 10); to meditate (Is., liii, 10); to consult (I Kings, xxviii, 6); to beseech (Ex., xxxii, 11); and, very commonly, to cry out to. The Fathers speak of it as the elevation of the mind to God with a view to asking proper things from Him (St. John Damascene, “De fide”, III, xxiv, in P.G., XCIV, 1090); communing and conversing with God (St. Gregory of Nyssa, “De oratione dom.”, in P.G., XLIV, 1125); talking with God (St. John Chrysostorn, “Horn. xxx in Gen.”, n. 5, in P.G., LIII, 280). It is therefore the expression of our desires to God whether for ourselves or others. This expression is not intended to instruct or direct God what to do, but to appeal to His goodness for the things we need; and the appeal is necessary, not because He is ignorant of our needs or sentiments, but to give definite form to our desires, to concentrate our whole attention on what we have to recommend to Him, to help us appreciate our close personal relation with Him. The expression need not be external or vocal; internal or mental is sufficient.

St. John Damascene gave a classic definition of prayer: “Prayer is the raising of one’s mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God” (CCC, no. 2559, citing St. John Damascene, De Fide Orth. 3, 24).

The Catechism clearly defines prayer as a “vital and personal relationship with the living and true God” (CCC, no. 2558). Prayer is Christian “insofar as it is communion with Christ” (CCC, no. 2565), and a “covenant relationship between God and man in Christ” (CCC, no. 2564).

Prayer comes in many forms: formal, informal singing,talking, with incense, adoration, as a group, through liturgy of the Mass, through the Body of the Church, non verbal, et al.

I am sorry that you do not understand or accept the words of the Bible and the teachings of His Church about the benefit of the intercession of the saints to deliver our prayers to God. But then, most non Catholics do not accept the words of Jesus about the need to consume HIS BODY and HIS BLOOD for eternal life.

Peace be with you.


106 posted on 08/09/2016 11:34:16 AM PDT by ADSUM
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To: ADSUM

You’ve yet to show a single instance in Scripture of a believer on earth praying to a departed believer in heaven.

Nor a command to do so.

You can’t do it, or you would have already.

Best


112 posted on 08/09/2016 11:42:03 AM PDT by aMorePerfectUnion
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To: ADSUM
I am sorry that you do not understand or accept the words of the Bible and the teachings of His Church...

Likewise; I am sure...


As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18

Augustine, sermon:

"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer.John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327

Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.

Augustine, sermon:

For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)

Augustine, sermon:

And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289

Augustine, sermon:

Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95

Augustine, sermon:

...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193

Augustine, Psalm LXI:

Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)

• Augustine, in “Retractions,”

In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.

 

129 posted on 08/09/2016 12:13:21 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ADSUM
St. John Damascene gave a classic definition of prayer: “Prayer is the raising of one’s mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God”

Indeed, and as such it is not merely talking to someone, and is always and only to God in Scripture. You simply have no justification for presuming to do what the Holy Spirit never did, especially when prayer is such a foundational common practice. To presume the Holy Spirit would not even provide one example of any believer praying to someone else in Heaven but God, while recording pagans making such supplication, is to charge the Spirit with carelessness and neglect.

I am sorry that you do not understand or accept the words of the Bible and the teachings of His Church about the benefit of the intercession of the saints to deliver our prayers to God.

What insolence!!! Nowhere do we see believers in glory hearing prayer addressed to them and making intercession for those on earth, much less anyone but pagans ever making supplication to anyone else in Heave but God! Yet you insolently reiterate your refuted claims again and again, which testifies to what cultic devotion will do.

. But then, most non Catholics do not accept the words of Jesus about the need to consume HIS BODY and HIS BLOOD for eternal life.

Which is simply an interpretation of the manner of language that is wholly without support and contradicted by Scripture. NOWHERE is spiritual life ever obtained by literally physically eating anything, as instead it is obtained when one believes the gospel message with effectual faith. As John especially teaches. God through Acts and the rest of the NT and shown me where souls were born again by taking part in the Lord's supper, or where in the life of the church that it is taught that consuming the "real" body and blood of Christ is essential for eternal life. It is not even manifestly described except in one epistle, which teaches that the body of Christ they needed to recognize is the church.

Moreover, if consuming the "real" body and blood of Christ is essential for eternal life, then you contradict your own modern church, since it considers properly baptized devout Prots as born again brethren.

Repent or stand condemned!

180 posted on 08/09/2016 5:56:44 PM PDT by daniel1212 ( Turn to the Lord Jesus as a damned and destitute sinner+ trust Him to save you, then follow Him!)
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