Eucharist in the creed?

OSV.com ^ | 07-20-16 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Salvation]

Eucharist in the creed?

Msgr. Charles Pope

Question: The true presence of Christ in the Eucharist is central to our Catholic faith, and many converts say it was essential to their conversion. If this is so, why is the true presence not mentioned at all in the Nicene or Apostles Creeds? Should it not be added at the end where we state things like our belief in the Communion of Saints, the resurrection of the body and so forth? — Jerry Roventini, via email

Answer: There are many things that are not mentioned in the Nicene Creed. There is no mention of the Ten Commandments or grace; neither are we told what books belong to the New Testament or that we should care for the poor, etc. The creed is not a catechism; it is a statement of certain key doctrines that were disputed at the time of its composition in the fourth century.

The creed was composed in response to debates about the divinity of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. While there are a few concluding statements related to ecclesiology and eschatology, the Nicene Creed remains preeminently a statement of faith in the one God: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The belief in the true presence of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist was not widely disputed at the time. And to the degree it was, the need to definitively teach on the divinity of Christ was an important foundation in order to establish his true presence in the Eucharist.  

In the Sacred Liturgy, many signs and words indicate the Real Presence. The words of the consecration, which are Jesus’ own words, say, “This is my body … my blood.” The priest later says, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world.” There are also signs of the Real Presence in our reverence of kneeling and genuflecting. And, as Communion is distributed, there is the simple creedal declaration and response: “The body of Christ. Amen.” Therefore, in the wider liturgy of the Mass and devotions such as adoration, the Church proclaims her belief in the True Presence.

While it would not intrinsically hurt to add to the Nicene Creed, one might wonder where it would stop. Further, since the creed is shared by the Catholic and Orthodox Churches, adding to the ancient creed might harm attempts at unity.

Pope Paul VI wrote a longer “Credo of the People of God” which does speak to the Eucharistic presence, but it is too long to recite at Mass.

[cloudmountain]

I use the word as a noun and an adjective, even though your fellow travelers would tell you I use it as a perjorative (I don't, not even with terycarl, poor thing).

So, what you are saying is that you use the word "Catholic," MY faith, as a perjorative?

Really, you shouldn't try using those more-than-one-syllable works, MHG, until you can learn to SPELL them correctly.

pejorative

You wouldn't want to appear to be an ignoramus, now, would you?

[MHGinTN]

So, what you are saying is that you use the word "Catholic," MY faith, as a perjorative? No, I am saying that some of your fellow Catholics (proper noun form, plural) say I use the word as a pejorative ... oh, right, my big fingers added an "R". Thanks. We need to ping Salvation to that one. She enjoys finding an error in my posts.

[Zuriel]

**So SOME things can change in the rite, nothing else.**

Change?

If partaking of the mass gives eternal life, then why is it taken over and over and over?
If once gives eternal life, then there is no more need to partake.
If it wears off, does one know when it wears off?

The conversion instructions found in Acts 2:38,39 has no mention of the mass.

[terycarl]

But it is getting more common that babies also receive the Sacrament of Confirmation in addition to the Sacrament of Baptism.

Isn't now, nor will it ever be a good idea....Confirmation allows one capable of rational thought to affirm the results of his/her Baptism....I was dedicated to Christ as an infant and now I affirm that dedication...

Confirmation is a Sacrament through which the Holy Spirit comes to us in a special way to enable us to profess our faith as strong and perfect Christians and soldiers of Jesus Christ.

Baltimore catechism some time in the 1940's....I am 77

[terycarl]

The Biblical Record shows no Apostle claiming to turn bread into the physical body of Christ. Nor wine into real blood. The Biblical Record shows no commands to do this. The Biblical Record shows no church that taught this. The Biblical Record shows no examples of this happening.

Sure the is, The command to do so came at the Last Supper..."DO THIS" in memory of Me, The Catholic church (the only Christian church for 1,600 years) taught it from the beginning, The biblical record cannot possibly show examples of it happening because there is no apparent change in anything...it is spiritual, the bread and wine become the Body, Blood, soul, and Divinity of our Savior Jesus Christ, under the appearance of bread and wine........oh ye of little faith.

[terycarl]

JESUS, GOD with us, did not institute catholiciism. To believe that LIE requires magic thinking, projecting imaginary things and meanings in pagan fashion, like the idea that you can get GOD LIFE in you via the alimentary tract. The body Jesus NOW occupies does not have blood distributing the LIFE through out the tissues.

Sure He did, and to deny that truth after 2,000 years of Catholicism is to project imaginary meanings in a. pagan manner (denying truth).

We can receive the Body of Christ in any manner that He directs, and He said "TAKE AND EAT OF THIS....THIS IS MY BODY".....does that bother you????

[terycarl]

LOL ... so we can say you are a ‘universal’ then!

Well......yeah....I guess you can say that the Catholic Church is the Universal church.....because it is....thanks!!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

"DO THIS" in memory of Me

And so we do remember Him when we carry out the Lord's Supper until He comes.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

As you indicated, very little was written about this belief during Apostolic times, either for or against. In fact, there is nothing in the written record that shows what the Apostles believed or taught about the Eucharist.

There is no record of this belief before 10ad. None. If this were a core truth of Christianity, one would expect to see commands and descriptions and examples. There are none. To say it happened is an argument from silence.

What I am asking is whether there is any contemporaneous record that shows disagreement with the writings of ...

Nothing exists before 100 ad in the inspired Word of God. What people wrote hundreds of years later is irrelevant. Your argument attempts to make what was written much later - which is new to what appears in Scripture - equal as evidence of belief much earlier.

Because if the Apostles taught that the Lord’s Supper was symbolic, these writings surely would have caused a great controversy, prompting others to strongly condemn these beliefs. The lack of any disagreement would indicate that these writings were in accord with the teachings of the Apostles.

I disagree with your line of thought. By the time these "fathers" wrote, syncretic paganism had taken over by introducing many pagan ideas into church life - including the existence of a class of believers called "priests."

The Catholic Church is expert at taking a later development and reading it back into Scripture, finding whatever hooks it can hang it on - a bit here and a bit there - to try to justify it. The authoritarian structure and mystical thinking leads to group-think.

[terycarl]

"DO THIS" in memory of Me And so we do remember Him when we carry out the Lord's Supper until He comes.

Nope, you forgot 4th grade sentence diagramming.

DO THIS....is an imperative sentence ordering you to do something....THIS was what He had just done, transubstantiated bread into His body (TAKE AND EAT OF THIS, THIS IS MY BODY)....then He tells you why to do THIS....it is in His memory....see?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Dude, “THIS was what He had just done, transubstantiated bread into His body (TAKE AND EAT OF THIS, THIS IS MY BODY)”

It is your assumption that what He did is “transubstantiated bread into His body.”

He was speaking metaphorically.

If you want to believe differently, that’s on you. It won’t bring you eternal life. For that, you will need to entrust yourself to Him alone and not works, sacraments, prayers, etc.

Again, on you.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

For Lurkers regarding the history of the concept of transubstantiation...

"The earliest known use of the term "transubstantiation" to describe the change from bread and wine to body and blood of Christ in the Eucharist was by Hildebert de Lavardin, Archbishop of Tours, in the 11th century.[14]

[Comment: more than 1,000 years after Christ's death]

"By the end of the 12th century the term was in widespread use.[15]

"The Fourth Council of the Lateran, which convened beginning November 11, 1215,[16] spoke of the bread and wine as "transubstantiated" into the body and blood of Christ: "His body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the forms of bread and wine, the bread and wine having been transubstantiated, by God's power, into his body and blood".[17]

Wikipedia

[mrobisr]

“That is the end-result of Tradition, not the starting point.”

You are the one who claims that all of your tradition started from Peter. If that was the case then all the tradition of salvation would have been handed down from the Apostles and it would not have changed as yours has. The changes that the RCC has had isn’t apostolic tradition it’s tradition that is made up as needed to “keep victims in the cult” religion.

19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma……………………………..1439 A.D.

Really, this all of a sudden became truth... sure it did.

“with the uniquely Christian understanding of revealed truth.”

Oh so you are admitting that 1500 years after Christ that God can still reveal major truths such as the Reformation! Us Prots have always accepted that, but I’m glad to see you RC’s are starting to coming on board with the truth.

Obtw, revealed truth must come from and be proofed from the Scriptures of the Bible not from the ccc. 1 John 4:1

And the final test which the ccc is proved to be false.

1 Corinthians 14:37 Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)

37 If any seem to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him know the things that I write to you, that they are the commandments of the Lord.

[cloudmountain]

No, I am saying that some of your fellow Catholics (proper noun form, plural) say I use the word as a pejorative ... oh, right, my big fingers added an "R". Thanks. We need to ping Salvation to that one. She enjoys finding an error in my posts.

WELL! I would hope that some of my fellow Catholics would know you better. You wouldn't do that.

As for finding errors, I don't ever enjoy calling someone out on them but some errors are too hideous to be overlooked.
As for Salvation, I am DELIGHTED that you are giving her some enjoyment in life. That's very nice of you. You do seem like a nice guy and I know that Salvation is a great gal.

[mrobisr]

Ok let’s say the date is off, but you are not denying the addition of it well after any living Apostle. By your own words it was absent from the record for 400 years, so then Peter didn’t put it into the ccc. Even with the date being off you still can’t truly say what is real and what has been made up by false prophets. This is the exact reason that Scripture is the only real non-changing document and the only non-changing Word of Truth. Are there any other problems with the list or is this the only one with the date that is off? It is fixed with your date, but it still proves that your tradition is not tradition, but made up as we go words.

1 . Prayers for the dead . …………-—————————……300 A.D.
2. Making the sign of the cross ………………………… …300 A.D.
3. Veneration of angels & dead saints …………-————…….375 A.D.
4. Use of images in worship………………………………… . 375 A.D.
5. The Mass as a daily celebration……………………………… 394 A.D.
6 Beginning of the exaltation of Mary; the term, “Mother of God” applied a Council of Ephesus……………. .-———————————————————— 431 A.D.
7 Extreme Unction (Last Rites)……………………………… ..526 A.D.
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory 1…………………………… .593 A.D..
9. Prayers to Mary & dead saints ……………………………… .600 A.D.
10. Worship of cross, images & relics ……………………… … 786 A.D.
11 Canonization of dead saints ………………………………… ..995 A.D.
12. Celibacy of priesthood …………………………………… …1079 A.D.
13. The Rosary ……………………………………………… … 1090 A.D.
14. Indulgences ……………………………………………… …..1190 A.D.
15. Transubstantiation-Innocent III …………………………… 1215 A.D.
16. Auricular Confession of sins to a priest …………………… 1215 A.D.
17. Adoration of the wafer (Host)……………………………Approx 400 A.D.
18. Cup forbidden to the people at communion …………………..1414 A.D.
19. Purgatory proclaimed as a dogma……………………………..1439 A.D.
20. The doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed …………….1439 A.D.
21 Tradition declared of equal authority with Bible by Council of Trent…………………………………………————————… 1545 A.D.
22. Apocryphal books added to Bible ………——————……….1546 A.D.
23. Immaculate Conception of Mary……………………………….1854 A.D.
24, Infallibility of the pope in matters of faith and morals, proclaimed by the Vatican Council ……………… 1870 A.D.
25. Assumption of the Virgin Mary (bodily ascension into heaven shortly after her death) ……………………………-—————————————————……1950 A.D.
26. Mary proclaimed Mother of the Church……………………… 1965 A.D.

[cloudmountain]

Change?
If partaking of the mass gives eternal life, then why is it taken over and over and over? If once gives eternal life, then there is no more need to partake. If it wears off, does one know when it wears off?
The conversion instructions found in Acts 2:38,39 has no mention of the mass.

Holy Communion is Jesus' gift to us. It's the holiest of food for our long-long journey to Him in heaven. Life is a work in progress and Jesus gives us hope with His heavenly gift of His Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity.
All journeys take more than ONE meal. One must be fed continually over life's journey.
There is MORE to being a Catholic besides the ONE book. The early Church Fathers will attest to that.
If you really care to read about the beginnings of the Catholic Church, you might read:
FOUR WITNESS, The Early Church in Her Own Words.
Those words are from
Clement of Rome, writing during the decade of the 90's A.D.
Ignatius of Antioch, who starts his history with "Today is December 20, A.D. 107."
Justin Martyr, "Justin of Neapolis, a man not far separated from the apostles either in age or excellence." He lived during the reign of Marcus Aurelius Antonius, 161 A.D.
Irenaeus of Lyons, a Greek who preached the good news in France. He received a letter from home addressed to "all communities of the holy and Catholic Church..." and it was regarding the martyrs...and this case, "in particular, of blessed Polycarp, martyred."

The Introduction of the FOUR WITNESSES The Early Church in Her Own Words. starts out:
The early Church is no mystery. As a matter of fact, most believers would be astonished to learn just how much we do know about the first three hundred years of Christian history.

My point is that there was a huge amount of documents written in those days. SCRIBES were very important for writing those documents dictated to them...and reading them to the recipients.
That was the only means of communication between villages, cities and countries. Those documents describe the events of those first three hundred years of the Catholic Church.

[Salvation]

Thanks.

[cloudmountain]

The conversion instructions found in Acts 2:38,39 has no mention of the mass.

There is more to being Christian than just what is in the Bible. One needs ONLY to look at early Church history to read about the thousands of men and women who DIED for their faith in Jesus Christ over all those years. They are our models on how to live (and die) as well....MUCH more than the slim volume of the New Testament.
Those early Christian martyrs gave TESTIMONY to Jesus' life. Jesus didn't write His words to us. He gave them to His Apostles to spread as the Good News.

The Mass is a HOLY MEAL. It's the Last Supper celebrated every day for Catholics.

John 6:53
52 At this, the Jews began to argue among themselves, “How can this man give us His flesh to eat?”
53 So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.…

John 6:26-27
Truly, truly, I say to you, you are seeking me not because you saw signs, but because you ate your fill of the loaves. Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.

========================

There are our "instructions" about Holy Communion, His divine meal. We can only get that at holy Mass. When I did a lot of traveling over this planet, it was always the same in EVERY Catholic Church on the planet.

We traveled in Eastern Europe and I went to Mass in Belgrade. I couldn't understand ONE word in Serbian, but I KNEW what was going on and was able to receive Holy Communion, the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus there.

I went to midnight Mass at St. Joseph's in Cairo one Christmas. I went with my mother and my husband, non-Catholic, stayed at the hotel and watched "Miracle on 42nd Street"!!
That midnight Mass was celebrated in Arabic, French, Italian, German and, thanks be, the "Pater Noster," the "Our Father," the Lord's prayer, was in ENGLISH. I said it loud and clear because it was so nice to say something I KNEW.
I don't know about YOU but I sure need the gift of Jesus' Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity...every chance I can get. I go to Mass Sundays through Fridays.

[MHGinTN]

Take the following as a very somber question to you: The Life of the Creature is in the blood; is blood carrying LIFE throughout the Body Jesus now occupies, In Heaven?

[MHGinTN]

From her postings I would say she has a gentle heart.

Pax vobiscum