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To: WVKayaker; BlackElk; don-o
WVKayaker, I very intentionally chose my words carefully so that I did *NOT* call you a liar. Why? Because that would imply moral fault. I merely said you repeated "untruths," because a person can pass on untruths innocently, if he or she believed them to be true and if he or she has been reasonably moral diligent in researching what is true and what is false.

I would not willingly insult you. I respect you too much for that.

Now, as to the untruth. If "worship" is equated with "adoration," and "adoration" means "the rendering of honor which is due to God alone" then no, Catholics do not "worship" Mary.

The difficulties you experience with the quotes you referenced (and there are many more) can be attributed, I think, to some combination of the following factors:

  1. Christ associates us in His saving work. None of us have sufficiently considered the many ways in which Christ associates all of us --- not just Mary --- in His great work of salvation. Christ, Whose work is completed and all-sufficient, nevertheless graciously invites our participation, yes, even to experiencing His suffering and His Passion, not only in its painful aspect but also in its meaningful, efficacious and saving aspect. This is so frequently reiterated in Scripture I feel sure that examples will instantly present themselves to your mind.

  2. Ours is a non-courtly culture. As 21st century Americans, none of us are entirely at home with the courtly language that permeates both Scripture and the vast body of devotional literature which was developed in a more courtly age.

    For instance, as American individualists, we don't appreciate hierarchies --- and by this I mean, persons arrayed in ranks and orders--- even though Heaven is portrayed by St. John in courtly and hierarchical imagery, even to the distinct and ordered choirs of the heavenly host! So those who hate courtliness with its ordered, ascending levels of dignity (elders with thrones and crowns, Angels, Archangels, Cherubim and Seraphim, etc. etc.) and Mary Queen Mother, will hate heaven.

    But no, I don't think you'll hate heaven. I think you'll see all this in joyful wonder, and rejoice that Christ is all in all.

  3. The courtly and romantic genre of devotional language. This is an aspect of the above, but requires extra attention. It is a constitutive element of courtly language, that (1) the honor given to any member of the court, pertains to the sovereign, and (2) the emotionally outre is expected, since the fervent panegyric of the courtier is not the language of the legislator, the diplomat or the scholar.

    This is true to a high degree in the devotional poetry of Christendom through the millennia, but it's even true of secular literature. You can find it in Elizabethan-era odes to the Queen, Spencerian and even Puritan (!!) poetry. (Anne Bradstreet and John Milton, for example.) Those who have ears to hear, I direct to this link on courtly language, which explains just the merest tad of what I'm talking about.

    Going back to historic Christian ways of thinking about this, it's related to Basil: "The honor given to the icon is transferred (Siapaivei) to the prototype." A painting, for instance, is an icon of Mary. Mary herself is an icon of God (an image) to a wonderful degree, since she is a human being (created in the image and likeness of God) who has been freed by her Savior from all sin. Thus she --- hailed by a messenger from Heaven as"Kecharitomene", most highly favored, full of grace --- is an unclouded icon, as we all shall be when we are utterly freed from sin.

    Bottom line: all honor given to Mary, the patriarchs, the prophets, the martyrs, confessors and virgins, holy men and women or any other persons, places or things which are images of God, is given to God, Who Alone is Holy and Who has made all things, each to reflect a beam of His glory.

  4. Private RevelationSometimes people just confuse "private revelation" with Catholic doctrines, when nobody has to believe Private Revelation, not even the person to whom it is purportedly given.

This barely skims the surface. I always rejoice to see people who show they have tried to learn, to study, to understand, and to appreciate. We do not adore some demigoddess. We will say for eternity in Heaven what we say in every Mass:

"Glory to God in the Highest!
For you alone are the Holy One
You alone are the Lord.
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
With the Holy Spirit,
In he Glory of God the Father."

"Jesus, my Lord, my God, my All."

BTW, WVKayacker, let me benefit from your expertise. Could you suggest any Protestant scholars who have written on the significance of feminine types in the Psalms, the Proverbs, the Prophets, and the historical books of the OT? That would be of great interest to me.

251 posted on 05/31/2016 9:27:42 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (BASIC: Brothers And Sisters In Christ.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

What a beautiful, thoughtful and accurate post! :)


252 posted on 05/31/2016 9:53:01 AM PDT by maryz
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To: Mrs. Don-o
ascending levels of dignity (elders with thrones and crowns, Angels, Archangels, Cherubim and Seraphim, etc. etc.) and Mary Queen Mother, will hate heaven.

So now you know the order of dignity that is not listed in the Bible. You have assigned Mary a title not in the Bible. Just why do we need the Bible? It's just the Word of God. Let's just read Catholic literature so we'll all be on the same page, right?

254 posted on 05/31/2016 10:03:01 AM PDT by BipolarBob (I'm so open minded that you should only think like me.)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Could you suggest any Protestant scholars who have written on the significance of feminine types in the Psalms, the Proverbs, the Prophets, and the historical books of the OT?

Do you have a list of Catholic ones?

263 posted on 05/31/2016 12:54:27 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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