Posted on 05/24/2016 6:49:46 AM PDT by Salvation
Many of you know that I write the Question and Answer column for Our Sunday Visitor. Given the celebration of Trinity Sunday this past Sunday, I thought I might reproduce here on the blog a question/answer regarding the Trinity. It is a fairly common question; perhaps you have it, too. Remember that my answers in the column are required to be brief.
We read in a recent Sunday Gospel (May 1, 2016) that Jesus says that the Father is greater than He (Jn 14:28). Since we are all taught that each Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity fully possesses the nature of God, equally to be adored and glorified, what did Jesus mean by such a statement?” – Dick Smith, Carrolton, TX.
Theologically, Jesus means that the Father is the eternal source in the Trinity. All three persons of the Trinity are co-eternal, co-equal, and equally divine. But the Father is the Principium Deitatis (the Source in the Deity).
Hence, Jesus proceeds from the Father from all eternity. He is eternally begotten of the Father. In effect, Jesus is saying, “I delight that the Father is the eternal principle or source of my being, even though I have no origin in time.”
Devotionally, Jesus is saying that He always does what pleases His Father. Jesus loves His Father; He’s crazy about Him. He is always talking about Him and pointing to Him. By calling the Father greater, He says (in effect), “I look to my Father for everything. I do what I see Him doing (Jn 5:19) and what I know pleases Him (Jn 5:30). His will and mine are one. What I will to do proceeds from Him. I do what I know accords with His will.”
So although the members of the Trinity are all equal in dignity, there are processions in the Trinity, such that the Father is the source, the Son eternally proceeds from Him (Jn 8:42), and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principal (Jn 15:26).
St Thomas speaks poetically of the Trinity as follows:
Genitori, Genitoque … Procedenti ab utroque … compar sit laudautio
(To the One Who Begets, and to the Begotton One, and to the One who proceeds from them both, be equal praise.)
The Athanasian Creed says the following regarding these processions:
The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, neither made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, not made, nor created, nor begotten, but he proceeds from them.
So although equal, processions do have an order. The Father is “greater” (as source), but is equal in dignity to Son and Holy Spirit.
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Which is absurd, even if one is in error regarding what he believes. Besides the Scripturally untenable position that the historical magisterial stewards of Scripture and recipient of Divine promises of God's presence and preservation requires or infers ensured infallibility, there is the entitlement to follow one's own conscience, even though it is not an independent and infallible faculty:
Over the pope as the expression of the binding claim of ecclesiastical authority there still stands one's own conscience, which must be obeyed before all else, if necessary even against the requirement of ecclesiastical authority.them Conscience confronts with a supreme and ultimate tribunal, and one which in the last resort is beyond the claim of external social groups, even of the official church." (Pope Benedict XVI [then Archbishop Joseph Ratzinger], Commentary on the Documents of Vatican II, ed. Vorgrimler, 1968, on Gaudium et spes, part 1,chapter 1).
They are finite and eternal in the philosophical sense??
Your second paragraph in this post is even more convoluted than your #160 post.
You continue to contradict yourself.
Whether your mind can understand it or not They have no beginning or end.
This isn't philosophy 101 or any other philosophy class.
We're discussing if the Father, Son and Spirit have always existed as a fact.
The Word makes it clear they have. Christians believe this.
We have no clue what you're claiming as you continue to contradict yourself. You might want to drop whatever website you've been getting your thoughts from on this topic and focus on the Word.
Yes he is (they are)...When you are kneeling at the Great White Throne Judgment and you see the Judge before you, you will be looking at the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit: God...
Do you affirm the Nicene Creed ?
Let's clear that up first.
Do you affirm either or both ?
Your comment seems to suggest you have no understanding of eternity except as just like time, only longer. (Probably why so much of Catholicism -- and by the same token, Eastern Orthodoxy -- is incomprehensible to you.) The Processions of the Trinity are not temporal, but eternal.
Kolo -- some time back you cited a saying of IIRC (which I may not) an order of Greek monks starting "God does not exist . . ." and I forget the rest of it, but I think it might be illuminating here, if you would fill it in here, please!
I believe the point of the saying was to the effect that to say “God exists” actually diminishes God.
There is, as I would think you know, a big difference between the two.
The Filioque being the major one.
As a general rule I do not subscribe to Creeds...especially those modified by the Roman Catholic Church.
That attempted diversion did not work and now we get to the real issue:
"As a general rule I do not subscribe to Creeds..."
This speaks volumes.
That attempted diversion did not work and now we get to the real issue:
No diversion necessary. You posted something you claimed was the Nicene Creed when in fact it wasn't.
Get your facts straight.
And if you're going to quote me....quote me correctly.
As a general rule I do not subscribe to Creeds...especially those modified by the Roman Catholic Church.
Creeds are no necessary for salvation.
The issue however, remains, that verga has posted something in #160 that says: (bolded emphasis mine)
When God came into existence there was nothing else all was void. His first thought must have been self awareness. The only possible outcome of an omnipotent being becoming self aware would be for that awareness to be a mirrored reflection or that omnipotent perfection.
Perhaps you need to visit with verga and discuss the eternal existence of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
And what? You think you or any other Catholic does?!?!?!
What a joke.....
On the contrary, the creeds are meaningful only to the religious at heart.
For the genuine Christian, it's the WORD.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.
Creeds may have their place, but there is NO substitute for the Word.
bump to read discussion
Your comments are contradictory.
Either God is uncaused, therefore cannot have a beginning or a first thought, or He is not.
When God came into existence there was nothing else all was void. His first thought must have been self awareness.
When the second being instantly became sentient there was no longer the void, There was only the "Father." The "Father" loved the "Son" with a perfect all powerful love and the "Son" loved the "Father" with an identical love. The love that proceeded from both the "Father" and the "Son" was also Omnipotent and perfect. As the "Father" and "Son" are both sentient there love must be sentient as well. This sentience is the Holy Spirit.
Well, there we have it. A created being for a god. One who is NOT immortal.
Verga believes that the Father, the Son, and the Holy spirit all had a beginning.
Your own words, verga.
I posted (and linked) the Nicene Creed. Arguing the point is akin to holding no one really reads or posts the Bible on the RF, which is a spurious argument. And if you're going to quote me....quote me correctly.
" As a general rule I do not subscribe to Creeds... "
That is a telling summary, and expresses the core issue in this thread.
No, I understand eternity. However it is Catholicism which has messed up so much basic theology. You're right....I don't understand catholicism because a lot of it does not line up with the Word.
However, this still leaves us with verga's post from #160 which so far no catholic is denying as false. Bold emphasis mine.
>>When God came into existence there was nothing else all was void. His first thought must have been self awareness. The only possible outcome of an omnipotent being becoming self aware would be for that awareness to be a mirrored reflection or that omnipotent perfection.<<
God has either existed forever or He hasn't. He did not come into existence as noted by verga.
Yes, we do. Not a perfect understanding, of course, but some image of eternity underlies and permeates our whole religion.
Only if by "the WORD" you mean the Logos, Christ Himself.
Your posts don't reflect any understanding of it.
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