Posted on 05/24/2016 6:49:46 AM PDT by Salvation
Many of you know that I write the Question and Answer column for Our Sunday Visitor. Given the celebration of Trinity Sunday this past Sunday, I thought I might reproduce here on the blog a question/answer regarding the Trinity. It is a fairly common question; perhaps you have it, too. Remember that my answers in the column are required to be brief.
We read in a recent Sunday Gospel (May 1, 2016) that Jesus says that the Father is greater than He (Jn 14:28). Since we are all taught that each Divine Person of the Blessed Trinity fully possesses the nature of God, equally to be adored and glorified, what did Jesus mean by such a statement?” – Dick Smith, Carrolton, TX.
Theologically, Jesus means that the Father is the eternal source in the Trinity. All three persons of the Trinity are co-eternal, co-equal, and equally divine. But the Father is the Principium Deitatis (the Source in the Deity).
Hence, Jesus proceeds from the Father from all eternity. He is eternally begotten of the Father. In effect, Jesus is saying, “I delight that the Father is the eternal principle or source of my being, even though I have no origin in time.”
Devotionally, Jesus is saying that He always does what pleases His Father. Jesus loves His Father; He’s crazy about Him. He is always talking about Him and pointing to Him. By calling the Father greater, He says (in effect), “I look to my Father for everything. I do what I see Him doing (Jn 5:19) and what I know pleases Him (Jn 5:30). His will and mine are one. What I will to do proceeds from Him. I do what I know accords with His will.”
So although the members of the Trinity are all equal in dignity, there are processions in the Trinity, such that the Father is the source, the Son eternally proceeds from Him (Jn 8:42), and the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and the Son as from one principal (Jn 15:26).
St Thomas speaks poetically of the Trinity as follows:
Genitori, Genitoque … Procedenti ab utroque … compar sit laudautio
(To the One Who Begets, and to the Begotton One, and to the One who proceeds from them both, be equal praise.)
The Athanasian Creed says the following regarding these processions:
The Father is made by none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone, neither made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, not made, nor created, nor begotten, but he proceeds from them.
So although equal, processions do have an order. The Father is “greater” (as source), but is equal in dignity to Son and Holy Spirit.
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I marvel at the stuff you and Laz find on the Net!
Must?
How DO you come up with this stuff?
ONLY???
Where DO you come up with this STUFF?
Well; you were wrong.
No need to explain how you WEREN'T wrong; or claim that I've proven you right.
Oh; I ping Mormons to these threads all the time. They don’t play well with others...
Ya see; Mormons have a hard time reconciling their INTERNAL differences in their OWN Scriptures than to waste valuable time debating the relative qualities of other readings.
Trinity: found in the Book of MORMON ----------- rejected in the Doctrines and Covenants
Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No. (Alma 11:28-29) ...and be arraigned before the bar of Christ the Son, and God the Father, and the Holy Spirit, which is one Eternal God, to be judged according to their works, whether they be good or whether they be evil. (Alma 11:44) ...doctrine of Christ, and the only and true doctrine of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, which is one God, without end. Amen. (2 Nephi 31:21) ...praises with the choirs above, unto the Father, and unto the Son, and unto the Holy Ghost, which are one God, in a state of happiness which hath no end. (Mormon 7:7) ...power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son--And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, (Mosiah 15:3-5) ...of Jared, that whoso should possess this land of promise, from that time henceforth and forever, should serve him, the true and only God, or they should be swept off when the fulness of his wrath should come upon them. (Ether 2:8) According to that which was ordained in the midst of the Council of the Eternal God of all other gods before this world was, that should be reserved unto the finishing and the end thereof, when every man shall enter into his eternal presence and into his immortal rest. (Section 121:32) And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife, and make a covenant with her for time and for all eternity, if that covenant is not by me or by my word, which is my law, and is not sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, through him whom I have anointed and appointed unto this power, then it is not valid neither of force when they are out of the world, because they are not joined by me, saith the Lord, neither by my word; when they are out of the world it cannot be received there, because the angels and the gods are appointed there, by whom they cannot pass; they cannot, therefore, inherit my glory; for my house is a house of order, saith the Lord God. And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, and it is sealed unto them by the Holy Spirit of promise, by him who is anointed, unto whom I have appointed this power and the keys of this priesthood; and it shall be said unto them--Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; and if it be after the first resurrection, in the next resurrection; and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, all heights and depths--then shall it be written in the Lamb's Book of Life, that he shall commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, and if ye abide in my covenant, and commit no murder whereby to shed innocent blood, it shall be done unto them in all things whatsoever my servant hath put upon them, in time, and through all eternity; and shall be of full force when they are out of the world; and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever. Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them. (Section 132:18-20) Abraham received concubines, and they bore him children; and it was accounted unto him for righteousness, because they were given unto him, and he abode in my law; as Isaac also and Jacob did none other things than that which they were commanded; and because they did none other things than that which they were commanded, they have entered into their exaltation, according to the promises, and sit upon thrones, and are not angels but are gods. (Section 132:37)
"Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name." (3 Nephi 9:15)
"And again the Lord called others, and said unto them likewise; and he gave unto them power to baptize. And he said unto them: On this wise shall ye baptize; and there shall be no disputations among you. Verily I say unto you, that whoso repenteth of his sins through your words and desireth to be baptized in my name, on this wise shall ye baptize them--Behold, ye shall go down and stand in the water, and in my name shall ye baptize them. And now behold, these are the words which ye shall say, calling them by name, saying: Having authority given me of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen. And then shall ye immerse them in the water, and come forth again out of the water. And after this manner shall ye baptize in my name; for behold, verily I say unto you, that the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost are one; and I am in the Father, and the Father in me, and the Father and I are one...And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one." (3 Nephi 11:22-27, 36)
It's like the Sunni/Shiite split in Islam.
LDS HAS the Trinity --> Book of Mormon - EARLY Joseph Smith
And it has the LATE Joseph Smith: Doctrines & Covenants.
Jesus taught this in John 14, answering Philip's request to be shown the Father. Jesus IS God with us.
When Jesus told Philip that henceforth you have seen the Father (because they had seen Jesus and experienced His dwelling with them in their limits set), Jesus identified/established a/the Physics lesson of reality.
The limits set in which the being to whom the hand in Daniel 5 was attached is not as severe as that which the guests and king in palace party central dwelt.
1 John 3 tells us that when He comes for us we shall see Him as He really is, because when we see Him we shall be 'like Him', existing in a less restrictive 'limits set'.
Incidentally, we will be in that moment just as invisible to those unchanged around us as the being to whom the hand was attached in Daniel 5.
The usual smarmy comments but no better explanation. Thankfully I wasn’t writing for you , just the lurkers and other interested in the truth.
So; you confess to refuse to answer where/how you come up with the stuff you’ve posted.
Let the LURKERS decide then.
OK then.
I told you it was BASIC THEOLOGY 101 as well as PURE LOGIC.You were told you might not like the answer or understand it but you were told.
How about you actually giving your understanding of the Trinity. Wouldn't that be a nice change of pace.
Elsie:
You ping them to these threads? So what you are saying is that while you have disagreements with some Catholic Doctrine, on this particular topic, you are ok with Msg. Pope’s explanation and generally are in agreement with it.
For the life of me, I don’t know who is Mormon or who is not, quite frankly, other than the Catholics who generally disclose that they are, and a free Reformed protestants, most people here ping and don’t say who and what they belong to. Although based on what some people post, I can usually determine if they hold doctrines that are anti Traditional Trinitarian, as was the case earlier in this thread. I have been here since 2007 and still have no idea what confession you hold to, to be honest, although in the past I think I have requested you disclose that.
In general, I don’t reply anymore to those who don’t disclose what confession they belong to but your post to me at least, were no mean spirited so I went against my general rule.
As the spiritual part of the Godhead, sure. IIRC, The Incarnated Human Individual Jesus experienced physical death, not spiritual or eternal death. His tripartite Personhood dissociated, which means that the temporal Body ceased to function under the influence of Soul and Spirit when they left the Body; His Spirit commended into the hands of The Father, His Soul proceeding to the Paradise compartment--called Abraham's Bosom--of Sheol/Hell/Hades. Is that not so?
"And if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you; he that raised up Jesus Christ, from the dead shall quicken also your mortal bodies, because of his Spirit that dwelleth in you" (Rom. 8:11 DRB). It does not seem to me that the (Triune) Godhead in Heaven ever ceased to exist and be continuously and eternally composed of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It was only the Human Person manifestation that was reunited and made to again fully function (without the Blood) for ever, but now no longer limited by the attributes of the physical sphere.
Don't argue about this. You have just got your terms, functions, and definitions mixed up.
The substance H2O is a chemical compound of two elements, hydrogen and oxygen in the ratio of two to one per molecule of dihydrogen oxide.
The molecules of this substance can exist in three different states (as occur in other compounds). The normal states of matter are solid, liquid, and vapor (gaseous).
At 273.15 oK (Kelvin scale)--and only at that temperature--can the three states of H2O coexist stably. The common names of these states for H2O are in English: ice (or snow) = solid, water = liquid, and steam = vapor. In other languages these states of H2O will be defined by other words.
A brief review of your dictionary will tell you this, as will a course in fundamental science of matter.
Don't confuse these terms when speaking of them technically, or likely you will be contradicted.
Consider where a dictionary or lexicon came from before you use it as the standard to define Biblical terms. There was no dictionary during the ages in which the Bible was being written. Words are defined by their use in context, not vice versa.
All of us, including Eve, came from Adam's DNA, physically and structurally. Our spirit comes from God. When, and individually, I don't know. Our soul is partly formed from reaction to environmental factors, hm?
Stop right there. You don't know your Hebrew. "Elohim" (note the -im, which means plural) is a word with the sense, relating to The Godhead, of being uniplural. Wrong foundation for your reasoning.
Stop tickling me! hoo-hoo-hoo-hee-heeeee-heeeee!
Especially true when abusing a dictionary. An ordinary desk dictionary is not written to be of assistance when it’s a question of theological terms.
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