Posted on 03/12/2016 9:36:07 AM PST by Salvation
Perpetual virginity
3/9/2016
Question: I am a lifelong and devout Catholic and have always considered Mary to be ever virgin. But recently, I read in my Bible that Joseph had no relations with Mary “before” she bore a son (Mt 1:25). Now, I wonder if our belief does not contradict the Bible.— Eugene DeClue, Festus, Missouri
Answer: The Greek word “heos,” which your citation renders “before,” is more accurately translated “until,” which can be ambiguous without a wider context of time. It is true, in English, the usual sense of “until” is that I am doing or not doing something now “until” something changes, and then I start doing or not doing it. However, this is not always the case, even in Scripture.
If I say to you, “God bless you until we meet again.” I do not mean that after we meet again God’s blessing will cease or turn to curses. In this case, “until” is merely being used to refer to an indefinite period of time which may or may not ever occur. Surely, I hope we meet again, but it is possible we will not, so go with God’s blessings, whatever the case.
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In Scripture, too, we encounter “until” being used merely to indicate an indefinite period whose conditions may or may not be met. Thus, we read, “And Michal the daughter of Saul had no child until the day of her death” (2 Sam 6:23). Of course, this should not be taken to mean that she started having children after she died. If I say to you in English that Christ “must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet” (1 Cor 15:25), I do not mean his everlasting kingdom will actually end thereafter.
While “until” often suggests a future change of state, it does not necessarily mean that the change happens — or even can happen. Context is important. It is the same in Greek, where heos, or heos hou, require context to more fully understand what is being affirmed.
The teaching of the perpetual virginity of Mary does not rise or fall on one word, rather, a body of evidence from other sources such as: Mary’s question to the angel as to how a betrothed virgin would conceive; Jesus entrusting Mary to the care of a non-blood relative at this death; and also the long witness of ancient Tradition.
Nope, and nope.
Sounds like you may be doing this off the top of your head than out of the Bible. Saith John Baptist:
"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he
that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am
not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy
Ghost, and with fire:
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his
floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will
burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire" (Mt. 3:11-12 AV; cf Mk. 1:7-8, Lk. 3:16-17).
When on the day of Pentecost all the members of the Company of Christ were sitting in a house, probably a large one. They were not swimming, were they:
"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were
all with one accord in one place.
And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing
mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of
fire, and it sat upon each of them.
And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to
speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance"
(Act 2:1-4 AV).
This was unarguably the baptism of the assembled disciples with/in the Holy Spirit by Christ.
The original Twelve disciples themselves had already been inducted by baptism into the Company of The Committed Disciples by Jesus, though they were not yet born of the Spirit:
"When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but* his disciples,)" (JN. 4:1,2 AV; * the Greek αλλ means but, except, save, other than).
Jesus baptized nobody except the disciples whom He had approached and chosen. Then the Twelve disciples baptized other Jews who came to Jesus and chose Him as their teacher (Jn. 3:22, 26).
These intimate followers of Rabbi Jesus were made very familiar with the ritual baptism induction process. It was not about having sins forgiven--that was the objective of John's immersion, a baptism unto repentance. So at the time frame of Jesus' ascension, He commissioned them to recruit disciples not only from the Hebrews, but from all cultures, inducting into discipleship officially the same way He had ritually initiated them, and they had already initiated others.
That is called "The Great Commission" and is carried out by those whom He delegated the authority of the Godhead (Father, Son, and Holy Ghost); and not only to officially discipleize them, but to impart the knowledge of all the things He had commanded, preserving that body of knowledge without modifying it for all to read, hear, and know by experience in developing spiritual maturity (Mt. 28:16-20).
Jesus Himself was baptized with fire of that same violent death to be administered to the Devil, his angels, and all Christ-rejectors. The Risen Jesus appeared to Beloved John the Theologian:
"His head and hairs white like wool, as white as
snow; and his eyes as a flame of fire;
And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they
burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many
waters" (Rev 1:14-15 AV; corrected to reflect the Greek grammar).
This is the cup endured by Jesus, roasting as a burnt sacrifice under the fiery wrath if the Almighty God, in His descent to Hell on behalf of the craven ones He was sent to redeem. As to the adversaries, they will be eternally baptized in the fire that Jesus averted from His saved ones:
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire" (Rev. 20:15 AV).
The humans to whom Peter preached on the day of Pentecost were not of the 120 already water-baptized and spirit-baptized disciples, but observers who needed to receive the gospel of repentance and belief in Jesus. They heard it, believed and thus forgiven and saved, and were baptized on the basis of (foundational use of εις) sins already forgiven (and salvation accounted as having been possessed).
My FRiend, this is what the Bible says, and it is correct when your reasonings are wrong. So be advised.
I must commend you in your own discernment of making this distinction. It is one that is continually mispreached that "the body" here is the "bread loaf" somehow transubstantiated into human flesh.
This is a reversal of the correct doctrine in which an assemblage of persons gathered for a purpose is a "body" of people, and when that assemblage is the ones called out (summoned) to Remember the Lord and His Death together, the whole bread loaf does symbolize that assembly, which itself symobolizes the working of a human body--in this case, the body of humans aggregately operating to comport itself according to the will and direction of its Head, the Lord and King Jesus Christ.
This issue is related to another verse in this book, 6:19, in which the grammar demands that the body described there is the assemblage of living persons, of which the individuals are symbolized by the stones of a structure, the structure being envisioned as a Temple of the Holy Ghost of living stones (1 Pet. 2:5).
Wrong, for the heart is purified by faith, then it is the faith that is behind baptism that is salvific, being counted for righteousness, and can precede it.
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (Acts 10:43-44)
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Acts 10:46-47)
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; (Acts 15:7-8)
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. (Romans 4:6-7)
As souls forgiven and regenerated, Cornelius and company were thus baptized with the Spirit before baptism, and thus were baptized.
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)
But as one who is baptized must have faith, and which faith baptism expresses, testifying of true faith, then thus such promises can be made that,
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
For as faith in the risen Lord Jesus results in confessing Him as the same (by mouth as well as the "body language" of baptism), and like as healing can result in walking, therefore calling one to do the latter can be used for doing the former.
Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? (Mark 2:9)
While faith is what is counted for righteousness. it is the works which faith effects that testify of conversion, and thus salvation is promised both to those who believe, as well as to those who obey.
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. (Romans 10:9-10)
Yet then there is this:
Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John: Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost: (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.) Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:14-17)
will trust Paul’s clear writing that says there is “one baptism”
Thus you do not trust other words of the Spirit?:
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. (Hebrews 6:1-2)
This is a valid doctrine as baptisms just as much as there are other fundamental doctrines.
I will trust Paul’s clear writing that says there is “one baptism” and attempt to make the less clear passages comport with that; rather than set the less clear passages and try to make this clear passage go away.
That there is only One Lord and One Father is not contrary to the Father being Lord as well as Christ, and Christ being called Father as well. And as the context of Eph. 4:1-6 is that of the oneness of the body, and not all who are water baptized are of the body, but all that are of the body are baptized by the Spirit, thus the One baptism of Eph. 4:5 can refer to the essential baptism of the One Spirit. Yet as a unifying, outward doctrinal confession of faith then it can refer to water baptism.
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire”
Rev. 20:15 AV
Is YOUR name written there?
http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/i/s/ismyname.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fCXpPINYxk
Acts 9:3-19
3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. 4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
7 And the men who journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice but seeing no one. 8 Then Saul arose from the ground, and when his eyes were opened he saw no one. But they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither ate nor drank.
10 Now there was a certain disciple at Damascus named Ananias; and to him the Lord said in a vision, “Ananias.”
And he said, “Here I am, Lord.”
11 So the Lord said to him, “Arise and go to the street called Straight, and inquire at the house of Judas for one called Saul of Tarsus, for behold, he is praying. 12 And in a vision he has seen a man named Ananias coming in and putting his hand on him, so that he might receive his sight.”
13 Then Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much harm he has done to Your saints in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on Your name.”
15 But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. 16 For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name’s sake.”
17 And Ananias went his way and entered the house; and laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus, who appeared to you on the road as you came, has sent me that you may receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” 18 Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.
19 So when he had received food, he was strengthened. Then Saul spent some days with the disciples at Damascus.
So... was it a WATER baptism Saul received? Considering he wrote THIS later...
1 Corinthians 1:14 (ASV) I thank God that I baptized none of you, save Crispus and Gaius;
It appears that to bear My name did NOT including making SURE folks got baptized!
Yes it was h20 baptism that Paul rcvd, and i am confident that he made sure believers were baptized, if not by himself, and laying on of hands in conveying the power of the Spirit, as was done for Paul, was also likely a norm. But in saying that "For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect," (1 Corinthians 1:17) a distinction is made btwn preaching, that of salvation by faith, and personally engaging in baptism, which is a consequence of believing, and an expression of it. And yet it can also be a catalyst for and thus the occasion of conversion, as it requires faith if one understands it, as most likely did then.
Because above all else "The Truth MATTERS."
Why does it matter that the Bible is the word of God?
Why does it matter that the Son of God was fully human and fully Divine?
And here is the real kicker why does it matter that Christ died on the cross and took on our sins?
Anyone who believes that 2000 year old words in the biblical language, Aramaic have precisely the same meaning today as then; is delusional.
Where exactly did I say that? You can’t address the substance so you twist the message.
Please, these exchanges are difficult enough without making specious accusations that divert into nonsense.
That would mean the placenta was...
Since the new life makes the Placenta, too, it would have been removed by the same means, presumably.
Thank you.
Pax vobiscum
Yes, and it's not something to joke about.Jesus took over ownership 45 years ago, and His name is written on me and everything He's given me to take care of.
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name" (Rev. 3:12 AV).
Fare thee well, Els.
Since you're not delusional, give us an example of a word or phrase written in Aramaic in the Bible that means something different today than on the day it was written.
The Truth matters, but we cannot find anything showing this in Scriptures from the men who lived then and we baptized by God’s Spirit and wrote for us inspired by His Spirit.
The Truth matters, but we cannot find anything showing this perpetual virginity in Scriptures, from the men who lived then and were baptized by God’s Spirit and wrote for us inspired by His Spirit.
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