Posted on 11/25/2015 10:50:25 AM PST by damonw
“Like their beliefs or not, there is one fact that stands out: Mormons do not try to remove your head for not believing as they do or for not submitting to their system.
Please point out where any Freeper has stated any such thing.”
i believe this person is suggesting that mormons aren’t quite as vengeful as Islamic terrorists.
“Since the last written passages in the bible are from Johnâs hand, warning that no editing or redacting occur, i consider both the Jehovahâs Witless AND the mormons to be doggerel aberrations and cults.”
are you a biblical scholar? i believe there may be some question regarding the order of the books in the Bible. i don’t believe that mormons have edited or redacted anything in the Bible. however, they do believe in modern day prophetic revelation, as they claim is the case with their Book of Mormon.
“The mormonic cult is evil.”
it appears that you are using similar, even harsher, language to that found in the book of mormon regarding other religious denominations at that time. perhaps, the pot is calling the kettle black?
are you a biblical scholar? i believe there may be some question regarding the order of the books in the Bible. i donât believe that mormons have edited or redacted anything in the Bible. however, they do believe in modern day prophetic revelation, as they claim is the case with their Book of Mormon.
________________________________________________________
I am not a “Bible Scholar”, but, I am not in total ignorance either. While there may be some question to the exact time a small minority of the Biblical books were written there is no doubt as to when they were compiled into a bible. In my seven decades on this earth I have tried to learn much. Much of what I have learned is in The Holy Bible and about The Holy Bible. I am dismayed that people say they believe in a book in which they really have little understanding of. Were I a Bible Scholar I would still be studying. The words of life are contained in it. I know this not because someone told me they were there but because I have found those words and applied them in my life. My life which is filled with wonder and awe that The Son of God would come to earth, be human, suffer the frailties of man, suffer the evil of mankind and yet love mankind enough that He would take upon Himself the sins of mankind including mine and willingly be punished for them.
How foolish would it be to hear this and try to believe it without testing it, without investigating it to the best of my ability. How silly it would be to say I was a Christian, a follower of Jesus Christ The Lord and not be a better person than I was. How silly it would be to continue to sin helter skelter depending on the Grace of God with no thought of what I do. How can I, a nobody belittle the Koran or other religions if I don’t know what it is that I believe. I don’t believe in fairy tales, I believe in truth. If you don’t know the truth then it is easy to believe in fairy tales. Knowing the truth sets me free from the frailties of the world, of the frailties and evil of mankind.
You speak of Mormons believing in prophetic revelation. How can you be a Christian and not believe in Prophetic revelation? In the book of James we are told that if you don’t know the answer to a question to ask God and He will tell us. If you don’t believe in prophetic revelation then you are bound by the philosophy of man instead of the truth of God. Ministers of the world mix their philosophy with a scripture here and there and gather a following because the followers are too lazy to study for themselves.
Someone earlier in this thread said they didn’t believe in the Nicaea Creed. If you really studied how this came into being, if you understood the Roman History from the time of Constantine you would question that creed.
When I was 15 years old my father as part of punishment for something stupid I did made me read the Holy Bible from Genesis to Revelations. He did me a wonderful favor. Reading the Bible will teach you more about God and His Son Jesus Christ than all the sermons in the world. It will light a fire under you to have a desire to know truth. I am burning still with that fire, I hope it never goes out.
I can truthfully say that I know that Jesus Christ walked on the earth, was dead as a door nail but is alive again and walked and talked with those who knew him in Mortality. I know Him and follow as best I can with the hope that I will be better tomorrow than I am today until I become like Him.
At the last day when I stand before God and my life is reviewed and I am found wanting, Jesus will say “he is Mine, his shortcoming have already been punished, I took those punishments willingly for his sake”. I will belong to Jesus for ever and ever and He will forever have my love and devotion.
What do I think of the Mormons? My wife is one. A better Christian I never met on this earth. Because of their fruits I have a hard time calling them a cult. I am perhaps not ready yet to weigh in on their prophets but I can weigh in on their Christianity.
so you are perceptive enough to know that the Jesus that mormons worship is different than your Jesus, because their understanding and description of Jesus is not in synch with your beliefs. ask any two people at an accident what they have witnessed, and i would be willing to bet that their descriptions of the same events would differ, even tho, both witnessed the same thing. ask two people who have met someone for the first time to describe that person after he has left, and i would bet there would be differences in their descriptions; even in their perception of what that person was like. ask 2 people at a crime scene what the suspect looked like and see if they differ. that happened to me and another person and we both recalled differences in what the suspect looked like. just because mormons attribute different characteristics than yours to Jesus doesn’t mean that you and the mormon aren’t worshiping the same Son of God.
“it appears that you are using similar, even harsher, language to that found in the book of mormon regarding other religious denominations at that time. perhaps, the pot is calling the kettle black?”
The only “book” that matters is the Bible, which contradicts the evil mormonism adds to it.
“so you are perceptive enough to know that the Jesus that mormons worship is different than your Jesus, because their understanding and description of Jesus is not in synch with your beliefs.”
No. It is because I’ve interacted with mormons for more than 30 years, including wonderful former mormons who have come to know Christ. Many on FR.
“ask any two people at an accident what they have witnessed, and i would be willing to bet that their descriptions of the same events would differ, even tho, both witnessed the same thing.”
Really, not a good analogy. In this case, there is no fast car accident. There is the inspired Word of God, which we can study in slow motion and in the original languages. It contradicts the evils of mormon teaching.
“ask two people who have met someone for the first time to describe that person after he has left, and i would bet there would be differences in their descriptions; even in their perception of what that person was like.”
In this case, we meet the Real Jesus Christ in the pages of Scripture. God has specifically inspired the words He used about His Son. If you read it and deny His description, as mormonism does, you are simply wrong.
“just because mormons attribute different characteristics than yours to Jesus doesnât mean that you and the mormon arenât worshiping the same Son of God.”
The only characteristics attributable to Christ are those He actually has. Being created is not one. Being married is not one. And so much more.
**I do not; however, believe in the Nicene Creed.**
Yeah, it’s got it’s flaws, for sure.
There are some other things you might oughta correct though.
Joseph Smith claimed to have seen images of the Father and the Son.
Not possible. The Father is only visible thru his Son, the EXPRESS image of the invisible God. Jesus Christ, and the apostles John and Paul, all declared God to be invisible.
Do you Mormons use the phrase ‘God the Son’? Neither Jesus Christ, nor his apostles, ever used that phrase.
Jesus Christ is ‘the image of the invisible God’, not ‘God the image’.
Side note: Thank you for your service to our nation.
ALL of it?
Or PART of it?
That's nice, but how are you with the management of your religious organization?
In conclusion let us summarize this grand key, these âFourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophetâ, for our salvation depends on them.
1. The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.
2. The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.
3. The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.
4. The prophet will never lead the church astray.
5. The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.
6. The prophet does not have to say âThus Saith the Lord,â to give us scripture.
7. The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.
8. The prophet is not limited by menâs reasoning.
9. The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.
10. The prophet may advise on civic matters.
11. The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.
12. The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.
13. The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidencyâthe highest quorum in the Church.
14. The prophet and the presidencyâthe living prophet and the First Presidencyâfollow them and be blessedâreject them and suffer.
I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true. If we want to know how well we stand with the Lord then let us ask ourselves how well we stand with His mortal captainâhow close do our lives harmonize with the Lordâs anointedâthe living ProphetâPresident of the Church, and with the Quorum of the First Presidency.
Ezra Taft Benson
(Address given Tuesday, February 26, 1980 at Brigham Young University) http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/fourteen-fundamentals-in-following-the-prophet?lang=eng
Only three?
Version Number When Published Brief Description |
Age/Year | Evil Power | Pillar of Light or Fire |
Number of Personages |
Father | Son | Question: Join What Sect |
Remarks |
Official Version,
Mormon scripture,
Pearl of Great Price
p. 47, 48, 1974 Ed. |
Age 14 1820 |
Yes | Yes Light |
2 | Yes | Yes | Join None | Lucy, Hyrum, Samuel, Sopronia Join Presbyterian Church 1820 |
Paper by Joseph Smith, Times and Seasons March, April 1842 |
Same as item 1 above | |||||||
Letter from Joseph Smith
to John Wentworth, editor Chicago Democrat
1841 account Published March 1,1842 |
None given | No | No | 2 | ? | ? | No question, told all incorrect |
Joseph Smith's First Vision by Milton V. Backman Jr. Bookcraft, Appendix D. Ensign, Jan.1985, p. 16 |
Both looked the Same They spoke |
||||||||
Dictated by Joseph Smith,
in hand of James Mulholland, 1838
|
Same as item 1 above, first known account of the official version. |
Ensign,
Jan. 1985 p. 14
|
||||||
Joseph Smith's diary of 1835, Recorded by
Warren Cowdery
Nov. 9, 1835, conversation of Joseph Smith with Joshua
|
Joseph, about 14 | No Tongue seemed swollen; heard someone; at first couldn't pray |
Yes Fire |
One, and then another like unto the first | ? | ? | No question, told sins are forgiven, Jesus Christ is the Son of God |
Joseph Smith's First Vision
by Milton V. Backman Jr. Bookcraft, Appendix B
|
Second spoke. | ||||||||
Saw many angels | ||||||||
Messenger & Advocate
by Oliver Cowdery supervised by
Joseph Smith
Feb. 1835
p. 77-79;
Also see Dec. 1834 p. 43
|
Joseph 17 1823 |
No | Yes | 1 |
No | No | No question told sin are forgiven | Note on pg. 78 that the revival was in 1823 (NOT 1820) so this must be the First Vision. |
Messenger from God | ||||||||
Dictated by Joseph Smith
to F. G. Williams Summer to Nov. 1832
|
Joseph 14 or 16 | No | Yes | 1 | No | Yes | No question, told "None doeth good", sins forgiven |
Joseph Smith's First Vision
by Milton V. Backman Jr. Bookcraft, Appendix A
|
Saw Lord (Jesus) he "spoke" | ||||||||
Written by Joseph Smith, 1832 diary | Joseph 15 | No | Yes | 1 | No | Yes | No question, told sins forgiven all do no good |
Ensign,
Dec. 1984 pgs. 24-26
Jan. 1985 pg. 11
|
Saw the Lord Jesus Christ (said He was crucified) | ||||||||
Early Church leaders
B. Young,
G. A. Smith,
J. Taylor
|
Joseph 15 | No | No | 1 | No | No | Join None | Journal of Discourses, 2:171; 18:239; 13:77,78; 20:167; 12:333,334 |
Saw an angel, and asked the angel |
The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.
THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535â541
Joseph Smith |
Then how; pray tell; did the RLDS folks stay behind And THRIVE when Brigham led the others on the ill advised trip across the American west where so MANY of them died on the trip?
Good point!
"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind.
The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings.
This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the 'servant of servants', and they will be, until that curse is removed."
Brigham Young-President and second 'Prophet' of the Mormon Church, 1844-1877- Extract from Journal of Discourses.
Here are two examples from their 'other testament', the Book of Mormon.
2 Nephi 5: 21 'And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people, the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.'
Alma 3: 6 'And the skins of the Lamanites were dark, according to the mark which was set upon their fathers, which was a curse upon them because of their transgression and their rebellion against their brethren, who consisted of Nephi, Jacob and Joseph, and Sam, who were just and holy men.'
August 27, 1954 in an address at Brigham Young University (BYU), Mormon Elder, Mark E Peterson, in speaking to a convention of teachers of religion at the college level, said:
(Rosa Parks would have probably told Petersen under which wheel of the bus he should go sit.)
1967, (then) Mormon President Ezra Taft Benson "The Communist program for revolution in America has been in progress for many years and is far advanced. First of all, we must not place the blame upon Negroes. They are merely the unfortunate group that has been selected by professional Communist agitators to be used as the primary source of cannon fodder."
We are told that on June 8, 1978, it was 'revealed' to the then president, Spencer Kimball, that people of color could now gain entry into the priesthood. According to the church, Kimball spent many long hours petitioning God, begging him to give worthy black people the priesthood. God finally relented. |
Sometime before the 'revelation' came to chief 'Prophet' Spencer Kimball in June 1978, General Authority, Bruce R McConkie had said:
"The Blacks are denied the Priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.
The Negroes are not equal with other races where the receipt of certain blessings are concerned, particularly the priesthood and the temple blessings that flow there from, but this inequality is not of man's origin, it is the Lord's doings."
(Mormon Doctrine, pp. 526-527).
When Mormon 'Apostle' Mark E Petersen spoke on 'Race Problems- As they affect the Church' at the BYU campus in 1954, the following was also said:
"...if the negro accepts the gospel with real, sincere faith, and is really converted, to give him the blessings of baptism and the gift of the Holy Ghost, he can and will enter the celestial kingdom. He will go there as a servant, but he will get celestial glory."
When Mormon 'Prophet' and second President of the Church, Brigham Young, spoke in 1863 the following was also said:
"Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God is death on the spot. This will always be so."
(Journal of Discourses, Vo. 10, p. 110)
Yeah; Native Americans are althroughout the Book of MORMON; too.
âI saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today ... they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.... For years they have been growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome, as they were promised.... The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.
At one meeting a father and mother and their sixteen-year-old daughter were present, the little member girl-sixteen-sitting between the dark father and mother, and it was evident she was several shades lighter than her parentsâon the same reservation, in the same hogan, subject to the same sun and wind and weather.... These young members of the Church are changing to whiteness and to delightsomeness.
One white elder jokingly said that he and his companion were donating blood regularly to the hospital in the hope that the process might be accelerated.
(Improvement Era, December 1960, pp.922-23). (p. 209)
Still have your handbook??
"I am a true believer in the gospel of Jesus Christ, I do not believe everything that is now being taught and practiced by Brigham Young.
I do not care who hears it. It is my last word - it is so.
I believe he is leading the people astray, downward to destruction.
But I believe in the gospel that was taught in its purity by Joseph Smith, in former days.
I have my reasons for it.
"I studied to make this man's [Brigham Young] will my pleasure for thirty years.
See, now, what I have come to this day!
"I have been sacrificed in a cowardly, dastardly manner." (Lee enunciated this sentence with marked emphasis.)
Excerpted from --> http://law2.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mountainmeadows/leeexecution.html
They succeeded in killing Joseph, but he had finished his work.He was a servant of God, and gave us the Book of Mormon.He said the Bible was right in the main, but, through the translators and others, many precious portions were suppressed, and several other portions were wrongly translated; and now his testimony is in force, for he has sealed it with his blood.As I have frequently told them, no man in this dispensation will enter the courts of heaven, without the approbation of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Jun.Who has made this so?Have I?Have this people?Have the world?No; but the Lord Jehovah has decreed it.If I ever pass into the heavenly courts, it will be by the consent of the Prophet Joseph.If you ever pass through the gates into the Holy City, you will do so upon his certificate that you are worthy to pass.Can you pass without his inspection?No; neither can any person in this dispensation, which is the dispensation of the fulness of times.In this generation, and in all the generations that are to come, everyone will have to undergo the scrutiny of this Prophet.They say that they killed Joseph, and they will yet come with their hats under their arms and bend to him; but what good will it do them, unless they repent?They can come in a certain way and find favor, but will they?
--JOURNAL OF DISCOURSES, vol. 8, p. 224
just because Muslims attribute different characteristics than yours to Jesus doesnât mean that you and the Muslims arenât worshiping the same God.
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