Posted on 11/06/2015 11:30:07 AM PST by NYer
I really don't understand the hatred for the Theotokos expressed by professed Christians. The only possible reason I can think of is that since Roman Catholics have such devotion to Mary, there must be something wrong with it.
This is one of our most beloved hymns in the Orthodox Church.
Here is a short (2-minute) video
which is interesting in that it is a beautiful choral setting by a Russian Orthodox composer (Bortnyansky) of a Greek hymn, sung by a Serbian Orthodox choir in an Orthodox church in Romania. (The point being that this hymn is known and loved throughout many regions of the world.
I hope that the many Protestants who reject so much of Roman Catholicism on political/theological grounds, are at least aware that there are hundreds of millions of Christians to the east who can provide independent confirmation of the practices of what really was the early church.
The early ‘church’ was perverted by the third century. We can’t use them as a reference anymore than we can hold todays political atmosphere as representative of the one which formed our nation.
Y’shuas Messiah followed the practices established at the time of Moses which differed from rabbinic law in some ways. This did not include focusimg worship on himself on his Mom. He said to worship God.
He also practiced a Saturday sabbath as well as the Holy days which were set forth ny God. Sunday worship was one of 5je changes made ny men after the death ofthe last apostal, John, amd didn’t even exist with Polycarp. So yes, things morphed and changed quite a bit after the first century, which shouldn’t be justified as being correct. We are to follow tje way, the truth, the life which is Y’shah (the Hebrew name of Messiah); not other men. All other men are in error of they differ from Messiah.
But Jesus by his own words said "I and the Father are one". Ergo, Jesus is Lord. And Mary is mother of the Lord Jesus in the flesh as Elizabeth addressed her.
Now here I am defending what is true in the Catholic church. There are many things that I don't accept any more and some I'm not sure of.
That’s precisely the problem with Bible-Christians. The Bible did not drop from the skies and self assemble themselves in the order in which they were found. It is the Catholic Church through its early Church fathers and theologians labored for some three centuries sorting out various fragments of writings, and gave us what we now call the Bible- the authoritative word of God. They did this by relying on the oral tradition. That Divine authority did not vanish with the curse of the Reformation that washed ashore more than a century and half later that gave us every imaginable and contorted form of Protestantism.
The very John you cite said in 21: 25
“But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.”
The oral tradition tells us that without Mary’s intercession, and belief in the written and oral words that instruct on the Holy Eucharist, there is no salvation.
So, you wouldn't sing any of these kind of hymns (for some quick examples)?
Awesome bump.
Sorry. A hymn to Mary is not “Christian”. Try pagan.
“Remember also that Ave Maria was the way the angel addressed Mary, angelic music put to music.”
How can one “remember also” something that isn’t true? It’s blasphemy. I quit a rather wonderful city chorus because “Ave Marie” was slated for the next season’s concert.
Nothing before 100ad. Never.
Even if that were so (which is still somewhat doubtful) there is insufficient evidence for prayer TO "Mary" be widespread in those times earlier than post- Council of Ephesus for 'Mary' to be the subject of prayer request that it be herself that deliver and "protect", etc.
If these were not so, then we would have all heard of it by now, instead of these strenuous efforts along the margins to assert that prayers to her seeking her own personal protection (as pagans would seek the favor of their gods and goddesses) were a thing widely approved of.
There is otherwise evidence to the contrary (of prayers to Mary seeking her own personal intercession) documented through Epiphanius writing against Collyridians who went beyond merely honoring the mother of the Incarnate Christ, to worshiping her as Queen of Heaven, thus singled out by Epiphanius as being one of the many heresies of his own time.
This is an interesting charge. When and by whom are relevant questions. If the early Church was corrupted, what were the corruptions, when did they occur, and by whom? Additionally, what is the correct teaching, and according to whom?
Additionally, if Jesus’s teachings were passed by the Apostles and the disciples, which Apostles or disciples passed the wrong information?
Some have claimed St. Polycarp, student of John the Beloved, taught non-Biblical teachings. Aside from the fact the Bible wasn’t assembled and accepted until 397 and 419, there is nothing to suggest otherwise, except the beliefs held by the accusers.
“Hail, Mary,
Filled fully with grace
The Lord is with you.”
“All generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath magnified me : and holy is his Name.”
>> When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is the son of you,” and to the disciple, “Here is the mother of you.”
Now, Protestants allege Mary had sons, besides Jesus. And John was young enough, he probably still had a mother. But this disciple is never called, “John.” We know that identification only by comparing the events he describes in the first person to other biblical accounts. He is identified, “the disciple that Jesus loved.”
Did Jesus not love the other disciples? Of course he did. But John the Evangelist is inviting the reader to apply all of the commands given by Jesus to all those whom Jesus loves and who love Jesus.
Who told you to divide the man from the deity? God didn't. Jesus said when you see Him, you see the Father. He is fully man AND fully divine... there is no division within Him.
Yeah, 200 years seems to be about enough to 1) face pagan opposition; 2) take a simple expression by Elizabeth to Mary; 3) build all kinds of logical (not scriptural)extensions; 4) leading to a veneration that never crossed the minds of the apostles or brothers of Jesus.
Makes sense, too, that it began in Egypt, where Isis was the mother of the gods.
The word used to describe Job as “blessed” is precisely the same word used to describe Mary in the gospels.
I’m studying 1st, 2nd, and 3rd John. He really writes about false teachers. It’s been interesting.
Your Bible also doesn’t say anything about Sola Scriptura.
Children are blessings. Women who did not have children were deemed not blessed. Nothing more, nothing less. Magnify the LORD and rejoice in God our savior alone, as did Mary.
Now, Protestants allege Mary had sons, besides Jesus.
Now, the Bible tells us Mary had other sons and daughters. In fact, it is very clear on this point.
And John was young enough, he probably still had a mother.
Speculation on your part.
But this disciple is never called, “John.†We know that identification only by comparing the events he describes in the first person to other biblical accounts. He is identified, “the disciple that Jesus loved.â€
Did Jesus not love the other disciples? Of course he did.
Agree.
But John the Evangelist is inviting the reader to apply all of the commands given by Jesus to all those whom Jesus loves and who love Jesus.
Not in this passage.
The Greek for son of you and mother of you is in the genitive. This indicates possession. In both cases these are singular. Jesus is entrusting His mom to the disciple He loved. No one else. The Greek rejects your claim assertion.
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