Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
Posted on 11/06/2015 11:30:07 AM PST by NYer
Papyrus in the Rylands Library, Manchester UK
One of the things that maddens and amuses me about Protestants is something called “primitivismâ€. I’ve written about it here. “Primitivism†is the ambition to return the church to the simplest form as it was in the “early churchâ€.
The little fundamentalist church in which I grew up worked on this assumption. They were going back to basics and getting rid of all those “man made traditionsâ€. They were cutting out the denominations and prayers read out of books and all that fancy stuff and it would be just the Bible.
Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t. This blog post outlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.Their idea of the “early church†was, of course, what their church was like. They were actually ignorant of the facts about the early church, which is understandable as they were Bible only Christians. Consequently they assumed that the early church was just a group of Christians meeting in someone’s home or a simple building to sing songs and have a Bible study.
One of the things they definitely did NOT have was any devotion to the Mother of God. That was a late, Catholic, man made abomination! That was a much later pagan interpolation into the simple Bible based religion!
Except it wasn’t.
Thisoutlines the fascinating discovery of the manuscript of the oldest hymn to the Blessed Virgin.
The earliest text of this hymn was found in a Christmas liturgy of the third century. It is written in Greek and dates to approximately 250 A.D.In 1917, the John Rylands Library in Manchester acquired a large panel of Egyptian papyrus including the 18 cm by 9.4 cm fragment shown at left, containing the text of this prayer in Greek.
C.H. Roberts published this document in 1938. His colleague E. Lobel, with whom he collaborated in editing the Oxyrhynchus papyri, basing his arguments on paleographic analysis, argued that the text could not possibly be older than the third century, and most probably was written between 250 and 300. This hymn thus precedes the “Hail Mary†in Christian prayer by several centuries.
Here's the text:
On the papyrus:
.ΠΟ
ΕΥCΠΑ
ΚΑΤΑΦΕ
ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ
ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ
ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC
AΛΛΕΚΚΙÎΔΥÎΟΥ
…ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC
MONH
…HEΥΛΟΓ
Here it is set to music:
Turns out the hymn to the Theotokos (the God Bearer) dates from 250 AD.
What is very interesting about these comparatively recent documentary and archeological discoveries is not only what we can gather from the scraps of text themselves, but how they become part of a much larger puzzle. We can piece things together to build up a better picture of the true facts.
The hymn is clearly a prayer to the Blessed Virgin asking for her intercession and assistance in time of trouble. This shows continuity with the belief of the church down through the ages. I’m thinking “Mary Help of Christians.â€
Therefore, if this hymn to the Virgin dates from 250 AD we can deduce that it must be a written record of an earlier practice. Think about it, by the time something is written down for use in the liturgy it must already have been in use for some time. Furthermore, if this prayer is part of a document that is a copy of another document, then this also indicates that the actual practice is earlier than the manuscript itself.
In addition to this, if the hymn-prayer is included in the liturgy, then it must be something which is approved by the church and in practice on a fairly widespread basis. If it is included in the liturgy, then the term “theotokos†was not simply a theological term or a theological concept, but something which was integrated into the worshipping and devotional life of the church from the earliest days.
That argument also goes the other way: if the term “theotokos†was used in a hymn-prayer venerating the Blessed Virgin, then a high view of her significance in the plan of redemption must also have been prevalent in the theology of the early church.
You want primitive Christianity? You want to worship like the “early church†then Marian devotion had better be part of it!
LOL, look who’s talking!
The Church has ONE truth. Go ask those serious Lutherans and Evangelical theologians who converted to Catholicism and why calling oneself a Christian who is not a Catholic is more an embarrassment today than anytime before. It’s called “Christianity Lite.”
I suspect both know the answer is contrary to the reasoning the magicsteeringthem used when they venerated Mary beyond her due. Just another flaw in manmade religion of catholiciism which science exposes so easily.
You said "thousands" a few days ago and I said "Either list the 'thousands' of protestant sects or use a different number."
Thanks. So, I assume you have a list of 1,001 now.
Care to share?
You keep trying this little notion: “ Go ask those serious Lutherans and Evangelical theologians who converted to Catholicism ...” Why would I want to consult people who appear to leave Christianity and swim in the religion of catholiciism, which is not Christianity but is made to look a lot like it? LOL, keep the magic rolling, fish.
You asked for the source?
The World Christian Encyclopedia (David A. Barrett; Oxford University Press, 1982) apparently estimated almost 21,000 denominations, and the updated World Christian Encyclopedia (Barrett, Kurian, Johnson; Oxford Univ Press, 2nd edition, 2001) estimated at least 33,000. “Denomination†is defined as “an organised christian group within a countryâ€.
The Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary estimated 34,000 denominations in 2000, rising to an estimated 43,000 in 2012. These numbers have exploded from 1,600 in the year 1900.
“The Church has ONE truth” ... with this I can agree, so long as you are referring to the spiritual Church, the Ekklesia, which Jesus founded upon the profession of Peter instigated by God’s Holy Spirit. You appear to be insisting that the man-made institution of catholiciism, with what I call lots of heresies and blasphemies hallmarking, that such an institution is what Jesus founded. Jesus did not institute worship of His mother OR make her a ‘mediatrix’, so your religion is not the one Jesus established.
This is typical of the shallow thinking of catholicism.
Uh, speaking of doctrinal varieties....do you wear the brown or green scapular?
Do you believe you can only come to Christ through Mary?
242 roman catholic denominations!
so much for "one" church roman catholics love to bandy about.
however, a lot of this is driven though by how a denomination is determined.
I think daniel1212 may have some additional insight on this.
Thanks... (really)
I will try to digest some of these sources to see why the numbers are so unexpectedly high.
I promise to get back to you.
I did find this already (from your Gordon Conwell source):
World Christian Database700 is a believable number of evangelical denominations. I am in that group, btw.The World Christian Database (WCD) is an online resource based on the World Christian Encyclopedia (Oxford University Press, 1982, 2001) and World Christian Trends (William Carey Library, 2001). Data for the WCD are constantly gathered, analyzed, and updated by full-time staff at the Center for the Study of Global Christianity at Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary (South Hamilton, MA, USA).
The WCD currently uses a "structural" approach in defining Evangelicals: Evangelicalism is a movement, primarily within Protestantism, consisting of all affiliated church members self-identifying as Evangelicals. Christians are also considered Evangelicals when they are members of an Evangelical church, congregation, or denomination. Characteristics of Evangelicals include personalized religion (including being "born again"), dependence on the Bible as the word of God, and regular preaching and/or evangelism. This structural approach leads the WCD to claim that there are 706 Evangelical denominations worldwide with a total of around 300 million adherents in 2010.
Again, I want to sincerely thank you for providing the sources.
That is exactly one of the reasons I wanted more time. It was my suspicion. I think that’s only part of the reason for the big numbers - but more importantly, if true, it blows a hole in the “one credo” argument he made a couple days ago.
Thanks for your support.
I will be looking at the sources he cited. It’s interesting. But I am headed for bed (east coast).
. We know this is not the case as just evidenced by the handful of catholics on this board.
Until they can with 100% certainty say this exists they are no better than the very denominations they criticize.
And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are even Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Works to obtain salvation? ... Or works of the born from above, either being lead by the Spirit or by ‘doing it for God’s approval’ works? When you get that sorted out, you will have awakened to the Truth of the Gospel of Salvation by Faith, not works.
Encyclical of Pope Leo XIII on the Rosary promulgated on 5 September 1895.
I guess the pope never read John 14:16-17 and Romans 8:26 which notes this belongs to the Holy Spirit.
The statement from the pope is just more evidence of the false teachings of Rome.
So do you believe any of Mary’s genes were in the Chromosomes of Jesus?
That’s one of the questions I asked Salvation a few days ago...
kinsman, I presume the picture you posted has something to do with genes and Chromosomes and whatnot.
Your question was - “Do you think that Mary’s DNA was in Jesus’ blood?”
Scripture says:
Mary was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
That which is conceived in Mary is of the Holy Ghost.
Mary shall bring forth a son ...
A virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son ...
Mary shalt conceive in her womb, and bring forth a son ...
The Holy Ghost shall come upon Mary, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow her ...
That holy thing which shall be born of Mary shall be called the Son of God.
As far as I can tell, Scripture does not say anything about genes or chromosomes or DNA. I have heard that gender is determined by the father, so that would not have been handed down from Mary. It is also my understanding that the blood of the mother and child must match. That if the blood did not match, that would be proof that the woman is not the mother of that child.
Do the laws of genetics apply to the child of the Holy Ghost? The answer is beyond my limited understanding of the wonderful works of God.
- Look up the definition of Mother in the dictionary. write it down.
This is the first definition that came up:
mother
noun
1. a woman in relation to a child or children to whom she has given birth
synonyms: female parent, materfamilias, matriarch, mom, mommy, ... more
verb
1. bring up (a child) with care and affection
“the art of mothering”
2. give birth to
synonyms: give birth to, have, bear, produce, birth, ... more
Do you agree with this definition of mother?
Look up the definition of GOD in the dictionary. Write it down.
The definition of God is rather generic. Here is what I learned about who and what God is in grade school:
Q. Who is God?
A. God is the Creator of heaven and earth, and of all things.
Q. What is God?
A. God is a spirit infinitely perfect.
Q. Had God a beginning
A. God had no beginning; He always was and He always will be.
Q. Where is God?
A. God is everywhere.
Q. If God is everywhere, why do we not see Him?
A. We do not see God, because He is a pure spirit and cannot be seen with bodily eyes.
Q. Does God see us?
A. God sees us and watches over us.
Q. Does God know all things?
A. God knows all things, even our most secret thoughts, words, and actions.
Q. Can God do all things?
A. God can do all things, and nothing is hard or impossible to Him.
Q. Is God just, holy, and merciful?
A. God is all just, all holy, all merciful, as He is infinitely perfect.
Q. Is there but one God?
A. Yes; there is but one God.
Q. Why can there be but one God?
A. There can be but one God, because God, being supreme and infinite, cannot have an equal.
Q. How many Persons are there in God?
A. In God there are three Divine Persons, really distinct, and equal in all things-the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.
Q. Is the Father God?
A. The Father is God and the first Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Q. Is the Son God?
A. The Son is God and the second Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Q. Is the Holy Ghost God?
A. The Holy Ghost is God and the third Person of the Blessed Trinity.
Q. What is the Blessed Trinity?
A. The Blessed Trinity is one God in three Divine Persons.
Q. Are the three Divine Persons one and the same God?
A. The three Divine Persons are one and the same God, having one and the same Divine nature.
Do you disagree with any of these statements?
- In your mind, is Mary in the same class as GOD, in the same genera?
No, in my mind, Mary is not in the same class as GOD, not in the same genera. Like you and me, Mary is a creature composed of body and soul, and made to the image and likeness of God.
- Do you imagine that any of Mary’s genes were in the Chromosomes of Jesus?
I responded to this question in post 477.
Regarding your statement about my syllogism, what is broken about saying Jesus, son of Mary, is God?
I’d say you just can’t make this stuff up, but clearly someone can.
What a piece of fiction.
If she had been expelled from the temple, why’d they accept her coming back to it?
And you’re presuming then that a prepubescent Jewish child knew enough about sex to take a perpetual vow of virginity?
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