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To: Springfield Reformer
Smyrna, church of the martyrs. No fault was found here. Only an admonition to be faithful unto death. Presumably there could be some who needed to hear that, or else they might fail at the moment of truth. May we all endure unto the end as well as these.
    I agree; I would add two points
  1. Again, the preemince of works is obvious, albeit works is faith working by love.
  2. A famous verse, championed by those who hate the Jewish people first by denying they are Jews, occurs first to the angel of the church of Smyrna.

    And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive; I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are even Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

    Revelation, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verses eight to eleven,
    as authorized, but not authored,
    by King James
    boldness mine


474 posted on 11/12/2015 10:04:05 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981

Works to obtain salvation? ... Or works of the born from above, either being lead by the Spirit or by ‘doing it for God’s approval’ works? When you get that sorted out, you will have awakened to the Truth of the Gospel of Salvation by Faith, not works.


475 posted on 11/13/2015 6:45:37 AM PST by MHGinTN (Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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To: af_vet_1981
 preemince of works

Preeminence in relation to what?  If, as you concede, a work is the product of faith working by love, then it sounds in my ears as if you are saying the sail is greater than the wind which drives it. Both work together, but faith precedes a work in time and motive.  Saying the effect is greater than the cause is to diminish the cause without reason.  

And that is why proof-texting is such a high risk activity. The passages in Revelation do not say that individuals will lose their salvation for a failure to produce x, y, z works.  That is not the narrative.  It is the congregation, the assembly, from which Christ threatens to remove the candlestick.  Yes, individuals are admonished to be overcomers, and remain true to the faith, but their basis of justification remains what the Apostle declares it to be, faith.

Which is one of the problems I have with these debates, and why I try to avoid going in infinite circles with someone over this issue.  Having explained an uncounted number of times that we evangelicals believe the faithful will persevere in good works, we are still presented, over and over again, in this caricature, that we diminish works.  We do not.  We simply try to acknowledge and reconcile the entire body of Biblical teaching on how we may be justified unto salvation.  

This means we cannot look at any given work as the basis upon which God will save us.  It does NOT mean we avoid the works of love. Quite the opposite.  Our identity in Christ is that of adopted children, who know and are secure in their relationship with their Heavenly Father, and as such, we love the Father and seek to do His commandments with all our heart.  We are not arms-length employees trying to make sure we don't get fired.
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
(Romans 8:15-16)
Now I have seen that spirit of bondage again to fear:
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
(Galatians 5:4-6)
So when Paul speaks of "love working by faith," it is not to discuss the "preeminence of works," but to set aside the false notion that anyone will be justified before God by anything but faith. To seek justification by works, or some hybrid of works and faith, is to abandon grace.  We are to be holy, as our Father is holy.  But we are not to imagine that our efforts to be holy are what justify us. Our justification was bought with a price, and we cannot add to it.  But we can, by grace working in us through the Spirit, live lives worthy of the faith to which we have been called.

Peace,

SR
489 posted on 11/14/2015 12:13:28 AM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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