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To: af_vet_1981
We agree that the context relates to a standard of righteousness.  I thought that was clear in referring to Jesus' teaching concerning anger as putting one in danger of judgment.  But Jesus is not so much extending the law as explaining it. The command to love one's neighbor was already law, and one cannot love one's neighbor while venting unjustified anger upon them.  

Indeed, any sin at all would prevent one from entering the Kingdom, whether one believed in a Magisterium or OSAS or anything.  Except one thing. Remember, all Scripture must be taken as a whole.  The same Holy Spirit who warns us of our need for perfect righteousness has also told us to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." There is no contradiction.  The only way our righteousness could exceed that of the so-called "masters" of the law is to be in Christ, the Law-Giver, to be identified with His perfect righteousness. No amount of purgation (or any other form of self-flagellation) will accomplish that purpose.  Jesus is setting an impossibly high standard, if one is paying attention.  That's on purpose.  Sinful, unregenerate man cannot achieve it. The wise sinner recognizes that and pleads for mercy, which Christ gives abundantly.

And OSAS (Once saved always saved) makes perfect sense in this context. Jesus is setting the stage for later apostolic teaching, especially Paul, that our justification is fully accomplished by Christ and solely accessed by faith, that our sins are adjudicated as punished and fully set aside by the death of Christ on that cross.  If we abide in Him, we have that righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees. It is really ours. It is an utterly transcendent righteousness, because it is the righteousness of the Son of God, and you simply cannot do better than that.

As for the debtor's prison not being of Jewish origin, I have no reason to disagree with you.  However, be it Roman or Hellenistic, that does not negate the fact that this is what Jesus is in fact talking about, and that it could indeed be effectively permanent unless family or friends intervened, and his audience would certainly have recognized the risk.

As for context, Jesus is NOT talking about purification of incompletely forgiven sinners.  He's talking about the severe penalty for failing to live up to the incredibly high standard of God's righteousness.  He was saying what all the classical reformation theologians would say, that if one could enter the Kingdom of Heaven by self-effort, this is the standard one would have to live to, absolute Christ-like perfection, inward and outward, without flaw, without debt.

But if something so common as unjustified anger is the judicial equivalent to murder, who then can be saved?  Who can remain a child of God for more than a few moments at a time, if even that? Five, no, two minutes on the phone with Walmart customer service can bring about a complete loss of salvation under such a model. Is that really the life of the would-be child of God? Perpetual fear that the impossible standard has been violated? No wonder all manner of inventions have been created to help the worried sinner cope with that fear. 

But the creative coping mechanisms are entirely unnecessary.  Jesus has accomplished in one act what we could never in a million billion years of self-flagellation ever do.  It is mind-boggling to contemplate.  It is a miracle of such a stupendous nature that people have a terribly difficult time believing it. It is apprehended by faith. But it can never be fully understood by our tiny little pea brains. For all eternity I will
 ... stand amazed in the presence 
 Of Jesus the Nazarene,
 And wonder how He could love me,
 A sinner, condemned, unclean.

O how marvelous! O how wonderful!
 And my song shall ever be:
 O how marvelous! O how wonderful!
 Is my Savior's love for me!
Peace,

SR





172 posted on 11/03/2015 11:15:04 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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To: Springfield Reformer
But Jesus is not so much extending the law as explaining it. The command to love one's neighbor was already law, and one cannot love one's neighbor while venting unjustified anger upon them.

No, he is extending the law, or restricting it, depending on your point of view. If you but say he is explaining it, then it was not given previously. (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. For example, look at all the contrasts between "Ye have heard" and "But I say unto you." Here are the relevant passages from the Law and here is what the Messiah said:

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not. And the LORD said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.

Thou shalt not kill.

He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee; Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift. Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.


Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut if off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.


When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife; Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the LORD: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.


When thou shalt vow a vow unto the LORD thy God, thou shalt not slack to pay it: for the LORD thy God will surely require it of thee; and it would be sin in thee. But if thou shalt forbear to vow, it shall be no sin in thee. That which is gone out of thy lips thou shalt keep and perform; even a freewill offering, according as thou hast vowed unto the LORD thy God, which thou hast promised with thy mouth.

Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil.


If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.


Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him. Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Romans, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verse thirteen,
Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter eighteen, Protestant verses fifteen to nineteen,
Exodus, Catholic chapter twenty, Protestant verse twelve,
Exodus, Catholic chapter twenty one, Protestant verse thirteen,
Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses twenty one to twenty six,
Exodus, Catholic chapter twenty, Protestant verse fourteen,
Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses twenty seven to thirty,
Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter twenty four, Protestant verses one to four,
Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses thirty one to thirty two,
Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter twenty three, Protestant verses twenty one to twenty three,
Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses thirty three to thirty seven,
Exodus, Catholic chapter twenty one, Protestant verses twenty two to twenty five,
Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses thirty eight to forty two,
Leviticus, Catholic chapter ninteteen, Protestant verses seventeen to eighteen,
Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses forty three to forty eight,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
boldness mine

177 posted on 11/04/2015 6:09:53 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: Springfield Reformer
Jesus is setting an impossibly high standard, if one is paying attention. That's on purpose.

No; believe and obey. There is no free pass here to ignore the commandments the Messiah gave. Are we not his bondservants ?

If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God. Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy? But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

John, Catholic chapter fourteen, Protestant verse fifteen,
James, Catholic chapter four, Protestant verses four to six,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

178 posted on 11/04/2015 6:15:53 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: Springfield Reformer
But if something so common as unjustified anger is the judicial equivalent to murder, who then can be saved? Who can remain a child of God for more than a few moments at a time, if even that? Five, no, two minutes on the phone with Walmart customer service can bring about a complete loss of salvation under such a model. Is that really the life of the would-be child of God? Perpetual fear that the impossible standard has been violated?

But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do. And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves. Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men. See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men. [16] Rejoice evermore. Pray without ceasing. In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you. Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

First Thessalonians, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses four to twenty four,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
boldness mine


No wonder all manner of inventions have been created to help the worried sinner cope with that fear.

TULIP, for example.

179 posted on 11/04/2015 6:57:31 AM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: Springfield Reformer

Amen...what matchless GRACE! We cannot begin to comprehend the grace of God that brings salvation. We either accept it by faith or reject the whole idea and invent our own broad way that leads to destruction. Carnal man will always seek his OWN way and boast of his own righteousness.


185 posted on 11/04/2015 8:25:53 AM PST by boatbums (God is ready to assume full responsibility for the life wholly yielded to Him.)
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To: Springfield Reformer
If we abide in Him, we have that righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees. It is really ours. It is an utterly transcendent righteousness, because it is the righteousness of the Son of God, and you simply cannot do better than that.

Excellent.

Romans 3:20-28 (AMP)

20 For no person will be justified (made righteous, acquitted, and judged acceptable) in His sight by observing the works prescribed by the Law. For [the real function of] the Law is to make men recognize and be conscious of sin [not mere perception, but an acquaintance with sin which works toward repentance, faith, and holy character].

21 But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets,

22 Namely, the righteousness of God which comes by believing with personal trust and confident reliance on Jesus Christ (the Messiah). [And it is meant] for all who believe. For there is no distinction,

23 Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.

24 [All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

25 Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

26 It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.

27 Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith.

28 For we hold that a man is justified and made upright by faith independent of and distinctly apart from good deeds (works of the Law). [The observance of the Law has nothing to do with justification.]

195 posted on 11/04/2015 11:11:52 AM PST by Kandy Atz ("Were we directed from Washington when to sow and when to reap, we should soon want for bread.")
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