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To: Springfield Reformer
Yes, that passage in Matthew 5 has at times been pressed into involuntary service of the false doctrine of Purgatory. Your first problem is context.

I wondered if you would step over " Verily I say unto thee"

Jesus is here giving teaching about living humbly and at peace with others.

No, your first problem is context. The immediate preceding verse gives that context.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verse twenty,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
boldness mine


Back in the preceding verses Jesus is warning against a shallow, merely formal observance of the law against murder. He says unjustified anger will produce the same result, in terms of judgment.

Which prevents one from entering the kingdom of Heaven, even though one believes in OSAS. The Messiah is extending the law, as He had been doing, and would continue to do. Witness the next verses about adultery, divorce, sin with one's eyes, sin with one's hands.

(BTW, in saying this, he is discrediting any notion of venial versus mortal sin. Here, anger, not even necessarily extreme, but unjustified, puts one in danger of the judgment, and just speaking with vile contempt toward someone (which happens here on FR all the time) can put one in danger of hell fire. There are sins that do less damage than others, but the payout on sin is always death.)

One can see the name calling on FR. OSAS makes no sense, so there must be another model.

So then, when he gets to the legal drama, a creditor and debtor on their way to the magistrate to duke it out in court, of course He is going to recommend settlement. Settlement, not a protracted legal fight, is the correct Christian model for resolving interpersonal disputes, even those involving serious property issues. The remainder of His advice is consistent with that. You don't want to end up with the misery of landing in debtor's prison. No hint of purgatorial sulfur in the air. Just great wisdom on keeping good relationships. Context context context.

Context indeed; the Torah forbade imprisoning Jews for debts. There was no forever in prison if you had no one on the outside to pay the debt for you. It was a Gentile practice, so he must have been referring to the Romans and other Gentile systems.

If thou lend money to any of my people that is poor by thee, thou shalt not be to him as an usurer, neither shalt thou lay upon him usury. If thou at all take thy neighbour's raiment to pledge, thou shalt deliver it unto him by that the sun goeth down: For that is his covering only, it is his raiment for his skin: wherein shall he sleep? and it shall come to pass, when he crieth unto me, that I will hear; for I am gracious.

Exodus, Catholic chapter twenty two, Protestant verses twenty five to twenty seven,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James


BTW, supposedly we don't have debtor's prisons anymore. But in fact we do.

Context, indeed, this is about the kingdom of Heaven, not the Gentile legal systems.

I've seen how it works live and in person. Child support. Get behind that eight-ball and watch out. The thing I never understood before I saw this in court was 1) how draconian the judge can be ("I don't care where you get the money, just get it." Seriously. It was that bad), and 2) the way the person who is in jail for non-payment gets the money is through friends, family, etc., who come to his rescue. He can't do it on his own. No way to earn anything in jail.

Stay with the scriptural context.

The debtor's prison of Jesus' day was of course even more draconian. If you ended up there, and you had no outside help, you were not likely to ever get out. It was NOT a matter of purgation. Your creditor doesn't care how much you suffer in there. He wants his money. That's what gets you out, payment of the debt. Nothing else.

Life and death were more draconian in Jesus' day. Scourging and crucifixion was common.

So while the passage could stand on it's own as simply being about avoiding prison by making peace and keeping good relationships, let's try a thought experiment. Let's say there was an analogy to divine judgment (again, not a necessary conclusion, but for the sake of argument).

Such as entering into the kingdom of Heaven, the immediate precedent of the parable ...

The essential legal question in all of this is who pays the debt, and how much do they pay. The debtor's only shot at getting a reasonably happy outcome is before judgment is passed against him. Solve this before you get to the judge. Otherwise, into prison you go, and no way to pay, so you won't be coming out until that last penny is paid, and that would normally be forever.

So the brethren can make peace and love each other without any penalty. The Second Greatest Commandment is fulfilled and the Messiah gives more grace to the sinners. There is no penalty. Rinse, lather, repeat.

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer. And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

First Peter, Catholic chapter four, Protestant verses seven to eight,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James


Forever in prison, that is, if you had no one on the outside to pay the debt for you. Thank God we sin debtors, stuck in our debtor's prisons of shame, guilt and condemnation, DO halve help on the outside, Jesus Christ, whom we learn from Scripture has indeed paid our entire debt, down to the last penny, leaving no legal basis for us to stay in that prison. We have been set free: ... Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. (Revelation 5:12) Amen.

There is no forever in prison. There will be a judgment,
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.


Second Corinthians, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verse ten,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James



162 posted on 11/03/2015 8:19:43 PM PST by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: af_vet_1981
We agree that the context relates to a standard of righteousness.  I thought that was clear in referring to Jesus' teaching concerning anger as putting one in danger of judgment.  But Jesus is not so much extending the law as explaining it. The command to love one's neighbor was already law, and one cannot love one's neighbor while venting unjustified anger upon them.  

Indeed, any sin at all would prevent one from entering the Kingdom, whether one believed in a Magisterium or OSAS or anything.  Except one thing. Remember, all Scripture must be taken as a whole.  The same Holy Spirit who warns us of our need for perfect righteousness has also told us to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved." There is no contradiction.  The only way our righteousness could exceed that of the so-called "masters" of the law is to be in Christ, the Law-Giver, to be identified with His perfect righteousness. No amount of purgation (or any other form of self-flagellation) will accomplish that purpose.  Jesus is setting an impossibly high standard, if one is paying attention.  That's on purpose.  Sinful, unregenerate man cannot achieve it. The wise sinner recognizes that and pleads for mercy, which Christ gives abundantly.

And OSAS (Once saved always saved) makes perfect sense in this context. Jesus is setting the stage for later apostolic teaching, especially Paul, that our justification is fully accomplished by Christ and solely accessed by faith, that our sins are adjudicated as punished and fully set aside by the death of Christ on that cross.  If we abide in Him, we have that righteousness that exceeds that of the Pharisees. It is really ours. It is an utterly transcendent righteousness, because it is the righteousness of the Son of God, and you simply cannot do better than that.

As for the debtor's prison not being of Jewish origin, I have no reason to disagree with you.  However, be it Roman or Hellenistic, that does not negate the fact that this is what Jesus is in fact talking about, and that it could indeed be effectively permanent unless family or friends intervened, and his audience would certainly have recognized the risk.

As for context, Jesus is NOT talking about purification of incompletely forgiven sinners.  He's talking about the severe penalty for failing to live up to the incredibly high standard of God's righteousness.  He was saying what all the classical reformation theologians would say, that if one could enter the Kingdom of Heaven by self-effort, this is the standard one would have to live to, absolute Christ-like perfection, inward and outward, without flaw, without debt.

But if something so common as unjustified anger is the judicial equivalent to murder, who then can be saved?  Who can remain a child of God for more than a few moments at a time, if even that? Five, no, two minutes on the phone with Walmart customer service can bring about a complete loss of salvation under such a model. Is that really the life of the would-be child of God? Perpetual fear that the impossible standard has been violated? No wonder all manner of inventions have been created to help the worried sinner cope with that fear. 

But the creative coping mechanisms are entirely unnecessary.  Jesus has accomplished in one act what we could never in a million billion years of self-flagellation ever do.  It is mind-boggling to contemplate.  It is a miracle of such a stupendous nature that people have a terribly difficult time believing it. It is apprehended by faith. But it can never be fully understood by our tiny little pea brains. For all eternity I will
 ... stand amazed in the presence 
 Of Jesus the Nazarene,
 And wonder how He could love me,
 A sinner, condemned, unclean.

O how marvelous! O how wonderful!
 And my song shall ever be:
 O how marvelous! O how wonderful!
 Is my Savior's love for me!
Peace,

SR





172 posted on 11/03/2015 11:15:04 PM PST by Springfield Reformer (Winston Churchill: No Peace Till Victory!)
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