Purgatory is Based on a Promise of Jesus

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 11-01-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Iscool]

I’m going to take my own advice I gave to Salvation and Biggirl earlier and just stop right now. I see no profit in continuing the same round about that’s been going on here (FR) for literally years. I find it amazing though that you, Mr Rogers actually believe that the “day” in verse 13 is indeed the Jugement of Christ yet STILL insist that when the works that are burned away, this isn’t a trial of the individual himself just his works. What else happens on Jugement Day other than a judgment OF the INDIVIDUAL. Sheesh.

You're speaking from man's wisdom, not God's...Those scriptures referred to speak nothing of a trial of a person...The scripture clearly speaks of a trial of a person's works...

It is not a trial of sins...There is no condemnation...It is a trial of rewards...

Kinda like a typical workplace award ceremony...You may be called to go up and receive a promotion, a bonus or honorable mention due to your performance, your attitude or something similar...Others who were not as exemplary as you will perhaps not get a reward...

During the course of your employment you may have designed and built projects that failed...Or unintentionally crashed a machine...

When the recommendation is submitted to the higher ups for review, the crashed machine and failed projects are expunged from the report...They are looking for the positives...Had those less than positives been on the report, you may not have gotten the award(s)...

You were saved as yet by the paper shredder...

And yes, things do happen that way...And that is what this judgment is all about...

[redleghunter]

Our works are not for our benefit, to make us worthy of heaven, but for the benefit of the others to whom we are to go to share the gospel. Those works are to show the transforming power of Christ in a lost and hurting world, a chance to overcome evil with good, and show the love of Christ to people who need it.

Well said. The apostle Paul listed his good deeds according to the Law as rubbish or dung in Philippians 3:8:

"Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,"

[Springfield Reformer]

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." --Jesus

The clear implication is that some sins can be forgiven after death.

That "implication" is only clear to the mind that wishes to see it.  Another explanation is more plausible, given the lack of Biblical evidence for any specific teaching on Purgatory.  Jesus at many points in His teaching ministry had to correct misconceptions running rampant among the people because the Jewish Magisterium had failed to convey the truth of God's word, but instead had invented many fables, loopholes, and other evasions of divine truth.  For example, there was a rabbinic tradition that supported purgation of the "sort of" righteous in a "middle state" in the afterlife (no doubt where the errant Maccabees picked it up):

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/12446-purgatory

Whereas Jesus describes a sharp divide, and no middle ground, as in the man who went to hell and conversed with Abraham about his lost brothers.  But, I suppose as a coping mechanism for that floating guilt people feel when they know something isn't right between them and God, this thread of rabbinic thought had created an early version of purgatory, as a failsafe escape hatch for falling short of the standard of God's righteousness, an unholy device that directly conflicts with the divine principle of atonement by sacrifice.

So when Jesus is pointing out the severity of blaspheming the Holy Spirit, He isn't sanctioning the rabbinic fairy tale of second chances in the afterlife. He's shutting that false hope down, and hard.  As if to say, you think maybe if you take the wrong side now, you might get a chance to change your mind and say you're sorry later, but that's not going to happen.  You aren't going to be forgiven, either now or later. Period. End of story. Makes much more sense than introducing an outlier teaching with no support anywhere else in Scripture. Bottom line, don't blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

Peace,

SR

[redleghunter]

When a Jew dies, Kaddish is said for up to eleven months to purify the deceased from such venial sins. In all of the Messiah's recorded conversations with Jews, or teaching, there is no mention of it to overturn this belief among the Jews.

Since there is no mention it means it was adopted by the NT church? In Mark 5:38-41 Christ dismissed the professional mourners.

[Iscool]

The work of Christ continues in Purgatory.

Some Catholics say purgatory is in Abraham's Bosom down there in hell...Others say this:

blockquote> Catholics believe that purgatory evens the score and fulfills justice while accommodating mercy. They believe that purgatory isn’t a place but a spiritual state of the soul in which it’s purified before entering heaven.

So where's that purgatory at??? Is it with the dead body in the ground??? Where's the soul reside during that purgatory???

[Iscool]

So therefore Christians -- "every man" is both a builder and a building. You created a division Paul did not contemplate.

Nope...The first building is physical...It was created by God and it houses the Holy Spirit...

Paul's foundation is spiritual...There's not really any cement there...We don't really build that building with diamonds and rubies...In fact, there are no diamonds and rubies nor hay in that building...

[redleghunter]

Yikes! Have not seen flagellation like that since Ashura 2009 in Iraq!

[Iscool]

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

You picked a pretty poor proof text for your purgatory...Judas there was praying for some dead folks whom God killed for refusing to repent from mortal sins who happened to be in hell...

Catholic doctrine says you can't pray dead people out of hell...Judas had good intentions but he was dead wrong...Just as wrong as the Catholic religion for trying to use that as a proof text of purgatory...

[Iscool]

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." --Jesus

The clear implication is that some sins can be forgiven after death.

You have to really reach to come up with that conclusion...

The verse is not speaking of one man alive in one age and dead in another...That doesn't even make sense...

The verse is speaking of two men, or a million men in two different ages...The church age vs. the Tribulation for example...The rule applies to (live) people in this age and it also applies to the (live) people in the next age...

[MHGinTN]

“It is not a trial of sins...There is no condemnation...It is a trial of rewards... YES! And the poor poster cannot see that this review/judgment seat happens ... wait for it ... IN HEAVEN! It is not the person being reviewed, tried, it is the works, whether done as walking in the spirit or in the flesh. The religion of catholiciism is all about walking in the flesh, working to be worthy ... a Heavenly review of born from above individuals does not cmpute for the catholic mind.

[Iscool]

And the poor poster cannot see that this review/judgment seat happens ... wait for it ... IN HEAVEN!

That says it all...

[redleghunter]

Nice analogy.

[caww]

....”Like they’d rather do that themselves than accept the offer of the free gift of eternal life”.....

Because of Purgatory in their belief system there’s no incentive to seek, understand or know the assurance of their salvation....so once again Catholicism prevents them from ‘knowing’ what the Lord would have them know and accept.

Catholicism often gives the impression of “steps” one must make to attain salvation....which then nullifies the Gospel Message of Salvation “given” fully and completely thru by and of Jesus Christ alone.

The Lord wants us to “Know” the Riches and Glory of Himself....as is written....

.....”To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.”....Col. 1:7.....and further.....”if Christ is in you, then even though your body is subject to death because of sin, the Spirit gives life because of righteousness”....Romans 8:10....Therefore....”We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure...Heb.6:19

[metmom]

It is not a trial of sins...There is no condemnation...It is a trial of rewards... YES!

Some people just don't get that once you are born again/born from above, you are a new creature in Christ, the old is gone, the new is come, that the believer has been transferred from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of the Son God loves, the record of debt that stood against us having been canceled, his sins have been forgiven and separated from us as far as the east is from the west, and we are SEALED by the Holy Spirit who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we come into possession of it.

You become one of God's children. He gave those who believe on Jesus the RIGHT to that.

It's not on again off again salvation.

The only thing sin does is disrupt the lines of communication, it doesn't sever the relationship each and every time.

A married couple isn't divorced and remarried every time they have a disagreement and make up.

A child is not disowned by their parents every time they disobey, needing to be adopted back into the family every time after they show the *proper* amount of remorse through works done to convince the parent to forgive them.

Honestly, if earthly parents treated us the way Catholics claim God treat us, we'd consider them awful parents.

God identifies as a Father for a reason.

[metmom]

It’s really pathetic the lengths Catholicism can lead people to act like in their effort to think they can become worthy to receive God’s mercy.

[metmom]

So they’ve been wrong a long time.

Big deal.

They’re keeping pretty good company, as lots of people have been wrong about stuff for a long time.

[Mark17]

If baptism is when IT happens, and subsequent sins end us up back at Square One, why wouldn’t God just kill us as we come up from the waters?

I have always said, if this is true, just drown me in the baptistry.

:-)

[redleghunter]

A child is not disowned by their parents every time they disobey, needing to be adopted back into the family every time after they show the *proper* amount of remorse through works done to convince the parent to forgive them.

You obviously did not grow up in an Irish Catholic family:)

[Mark17]

OK. So how are they made righteous?

Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses, Samuel, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Job, Elijah, Methuselah, Enoch, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, Timothy, were made righteous, the EXACT same way you and I are.

:-)

[Mark17]

We are doing wonderfully, but it is always hot here, 365 days a year, it is hot. Oh well. We are surviving.