Purgatory is Based on a Promise of Jesus

Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 11-01-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

[Mark17]

This is a hopeless argument between Catholics and Bible based Christians.

You are correct sir. I guess we will all know for sure, when we reach the Pearly Gates. By that time, it will too late for millions. That IS the way it is :-)

[metmom]

The CE explains that St. Augustine "describes two conditions of men; "some there are who have departed this life, not so bad as to be deemed unworthy of mercy, nor so good as to be entitled to immediate happiness" etc.

*unworthy of mercy* means it's no longer mercy, but rather wages due.

Mercy is not getting what we deserve. It's the very ones that he disqualifies who are the ones who receive it because it's all they have to go on.

ALL have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

According to James, if you commit one sin, you are guilty of the whole Law because of who you've sinned against.

And this again, shows that Catholicism is a merit based religious system, beginning to end.

[metmom]

The problem with the concept of purgatory is that it is basically reforming the old person, not giving them a new nature as we are promised.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

Romans 6:1-11 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

When a person is born again, they receive a NEW nature, a Godly, Spirit given nature, becoming NEW creatures IN CHRIST.

When we die, the old sin nature is finally gone and all that is left is the new, sinless nature, which IS righteous enough to stand before a holy God.

On what basis? Because it's the righteousness of Christ Himself which has been imputed to us, credited to our account.

There's no need for purgatory because there's nothing left to purge from our souls because that part died in Christ when the person was born again.

We are regenerate NOW. We are saved NOW.

[metmom]

He needs for us to meet him at least half way, otherwise why did he go through all that effort if he could just snap his fingers and make it all happen?

Our works are not for our benefit, to make us worthy of heaven, but for the benefit of the others to whom we are to go to share the gospel.

Those works are to show the transforming power of Christ in a lost and hurting world, a chance to overcome evil with good, and show the love of Christ to people who need it.

The works are a testimony of what Christ can do in and through imperfect people.

He doesn't "need" us to do ANYTHING.

He can visit people in dreams and visions, as is regularly reported amongst muslims.

But we've been given the charge and it is our responsibility to go into the world and share the gospel, and our lives testify to its truthfulness.

[metmom]

Well said.

[metmom]

Paradise WAS the waiting place, the purgation place. It was not heaven. Christ was the first one into heaven.

Paradise was the waiting place but not for purging.

There is no indication in the account of the rich man and Lazarus that gives the slightest indication that there was any kind of purging going on.

[metmom]

Parmy: **In Revelation is says that the 144,000 washed their robes clean. **

Salvation: “How? Through baptism and through repentance in the Sacrament of Penance/Reconciliation.”

Nonsense. Those 144,000 in the tribulation were sealed by GOD. It says NOTHING about penance or any Catholic sacrament.

[metmom]

It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

So someone thought it was a good idea to pray for the dead?

Big deal......

In the NT church Paul addressed the practice of baptizing people for the dead. It certainly doesn't prove anything, except that it happened.

It doesn't mean God approves of it or makes it a means of salvation.

David thought adultery with Bathsheba was a good idea but that didn't make it right. Just because Scripture records that something happened, doesn't make it doctrine.

[metmom]

mr. rogers:It is the Blood of the Lamb that cleans us

annalex: What makes you think Msgr. Pope or anyone familiar with the teachings of the Holy Church disagrees with that?

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!

For real?!?!?!

This very topic and teaching of Catholicism shows that people disagree with it.

If the Catholic church really taught that the blood of Jesus cleanses us from sin, they wouldn't be teaching that suffering in purgatory does.

[metmom]

Purgatory is not a blasphemy. It is referred to numerous times in the Bible.

Ok. Give us the references, chapter and verse.

BY NAME. Show us the name *purgatory* in the Bible.

After all, according to Catholics, if it's not mentioned by name in Scripture, it doesn't count in the mode of the sola Scriptura disagreement.

[metmom]

Show us who has been bashing any Catholics on this thread? I have seen no name calling or insults, or personal attacks.

Which Catholics specifically, have been attacked? Who are they?

Please give us the post numbers.

[metmom]

Looks like these guys are out, trying to shut down discussion.....

[metmom]

You jumped to an unjustified conclusion. Evangelical belief in the sufficiency of Christ's atonement is not an invitation to become a spiritual sloth. Quite the opposite. Yet we are aware it seems paradoxical. The natural man, with no life from God, would take that news just as you say, as an opportunity to sin without consequences. But that message is not for the lost, but for the regenerate and well beloved child of God, whose heart is filled with the impulse of spiritual life, the strong desire to please God, to become imitators of Him, as a child imitates a well-beloved parent.

Which puts to rest that unfounded argument against salvation by grace and the security of the believer.

Romans 6:1-23 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification. For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

[FourtySeven]

Thanks to you both for your kind support. I don’t know anymore which is correct (whether St Paul was addressing the church at Corinth only corporately or addressing each individual there) but ultimately I don’t think it matters.

Verses 13-15 of chapter 3 remain and as you both pointed out in it’s clear that each individual’s work (either his own “building” or his own contribution to the “building” that is the Church) will be tested, as by fire, and that which can be burned away will be burned away.

This is why, I believe, apologists don’t claim the entire dogma of Purgatory is contained in this passage but the concept is clearly there.

[metmom]

Thanks.

I am *humbled* and appreciate your voice of reason.

[metmom]

Go and sin no more means exactly that, that we should do that.

However, it doesn’t say that if we do, it’ll affect our salvation.

[humblegunner]

I have my rare moments.

[DungeonMaster]

You are correct sir. I guess we will all know for sure, when we reach the Pearly Gates. By that time, it will too late for millions. That IS the way it is :-)

When trying to show that a Catholic doctrine is made nonsense, always stick with Mary.

[daniel1212]

Verses 13-15 of chapter 3 remain and as you both pointed out in it’s clear that each individual’s work (either his own “building” or his own contribution to the “building” that is the Church) will be tested, as by fire, and that which can be burned away will be burned away.

And which is the only postmortem suffering for believers, which takes place the judgment seat of Christ due to the loss of rewards and the Lord's disapproval. (1Co. 3:8ff) Which one is saved despite of and which does not occur until the Lord's return! (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4)

For in addition to being made accepted in the Beloved on His account, versus justified by their own holiness as per Rome, God recompenses faith (Heb. 10:35) for what it did, which also means the loss of rewards for building the church with tares.

Souls are to seek to be as Christ, but as with "be ye perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect, such calls are not conditions for being with the Lord, but are an exhortations in response to already being children of God by faith, who spiritually have direct access into the holy of holies by the sinless shed blood of Christ. (Heb. 10:19)

Salvific faith must be the kind that effects holiness, and thus the holy are promised salvation as well as those who believe, but the effect is not the cause of justification and entering into glory, but that of being forgiven and accepted in the Beloved on His account. For He who is holy was numbered with the transgressors, the Lord laying on him the iniquity of us all (Is. 53:6,12) bearing our sins in His own body on the cross, (1Pt. 2:24) God making Him who knew no sin to become sin for us. (2Co. 5:17)

By which the believer is already accepted in Christ and positionally seated with Him in Heaven, (Eph. 1:6;2:6) and will be with Him at death or His return, (2Co. 5:8; Phil. 1:21-13; Acts 7:59; Lk. 23:39; 1Ths. 4:17) which is what the entire church was told in the first century.

The apostle Paul expressed that to depart from this life would be to be present with the Lord, though he confessed to the same people that he was not perfect, (Phil. 1:21-24; 3:12) but that he longed to practically be what he positionally was - which" high calling of God in Christ Jesus" is to be the hunger of a true believer - for which he consistently only pointed to the the resurrection as effecting any postmortem constitutional change. And it is then and only then that believers are said they will be like Christ.

For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself. (Philippians 3:20-21)

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven...Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: (2 Corinthians 5:2,5-6)

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure. (1 John 3:2-3)

Nothing unclean with enter the Heavenly City just as no unclean soul can have communion with God now, but it is by true faith in the Lord Jesus to save the damned and destitute sinner by His sinless shed blood that a believer is both spiritually with God now and will be after this life.

The idea that even a new convert has attained to perfection of character, or that the contrite criminal did in a few hours on the cross, is also absurd. growth toward perfection is a long process requiring manifold temptations, and not simply suffering. (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) Thus the Divine Lord Himself in the mystery of His incarnation had to experience being tempted in every basic way we are. And being made perfect [in experience and overcoming] , he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey Him; (Hebrews 5:9)

It remains that the idea that one must "actually be perfect as the Father is perfect" "having the perfection of our heavenly Father" in order to be with God is indeed absurd, as it effectively turns salvation by grace thru faith into salvation under the Law - which required perfect conformity to be saved (Gal. 3:10) - except that one is given more grace to become as good as Christ, which is blasphemous.

[af_vet_1981]

This is why, I believe, apologists don’t claim the entire dogma of Purgatory is contained in this passage but the concept is clearly there.

Ah, well I would say the concept is there because the concept is Jewish.

May His great Name grow exalted and sanctified (Amen.) in the world that He created as He willed. May He give reign to His kingship in your lifetimes and in your days, and in the lifetimes of the entire Family of Israel, swiftly and soon. Now respond: Amen. (Cong Amen. May His great Name be blessed forever and ever.) May His great Name be blessed forever and ever. Blessed, praised, glorified, exalted, extolled, mighty, upraised, and lauded be the Name of the Holy One, Blessed is He (Cong. Blessed is He) beyond any blessing and song, praise and consolation that are uttered in the world. Now respond: Amen. May there be abundant peace from Heaven, and life upon us and upon all Israel. Now respond: Amen. He Who makes peace in His heights, may He make peace, upon us and upon all Israel. Now respond: Amen.

The one holy catholic apostolic church has believed in purgation and prayers for the dead for almost two thousand years. The Jews have been doing so even longer, unto this day. When a Jew dies, Kaddish is said for up to eleven months to purify the deceased from such venial sins. In all of the Messiah's recorded conversations with Jews, or teaching, there is no mention of it to overturn this belief among the Jews.

A mourner says Kaddish to help along the soul of the deceased in its journey upwards.

The Talmud and contemporary works describe this response as common custom almost two thousand years ago.

Nor does ascribing the doctrine to Gregory explain the graffiti in the catacombs, where Christians during the persecutions of the first three centuries recorded prayers for the dead. Indeed, some of the earliest Christian writings outside the New Testament, like the Acts of Paul and Thecla and the Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity (both written during the second century), refer to the Christian practice of praying for the dead. Such prayers would have been offered only if Christians believed in purgatory, even if they did not use that name for it. (See Catholic Answers’ Fathers Know Best tract The Existence of Purgatory for quotations from these and other early Christian sources.)