Posted on 10/13/2015 8:08:21 AM PDT by Salvation
It was made up like a fairy tale - a total air ball.
Those of us who study the early church fathers know better than that...Hope you don't choke on it...Well, yes I do...
Irenaeus believed and taught the Rapture of the church...
Cyprian believed and taught the Rapture of the church...
Ephraim believed and taught the Rapture of the church...
And no doubt many others wrote about the Rapture whose works were likely destroyed...
And PAUL wrote the details!
Your error may be a attributable to poor catechization.... Here's the proof from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.""
Looks like it says exactly what it says.
Hoss
BOOKMARK
Bingo. Thanks MHG, I was just going to tell Iscool that Paul believed to too, but you just did. 😂😇😆
Have a lovely day.
Do you think creating a non-Biblical Mary is a sign of the One True CHURCH; having the ONLY way to HEaven?
My 'church' has 'approved' zero.
I thought you believed in the Trinity, my mistake.
The first recorded apparition of the BVM was to St. Gregory Thaumaturgus wherein she explained the doctrine of the Trinity that we hold till this very day.
There is one God, the Father of the living Word, who is His subsistent Wisdom and Power and Eternal Image: perfect Begetter of the perfect Begotten, Father of the only-begotten Son. There is one Lord, Only of the Only, God of God, Image and Likeness of Deity, Efficient Word, Wisdom comprehensive of the constitution of all things, and Power formative of the whole creation, true Son of true Father, Invisible of Invisible, and Incorruptible of Incorruptible, and Immortal of Immortal and Eternal of Eternal. And there is One Holy Spirit, having His subsistence from God, and being made manifest by the Son, to wit to men: Image of the Son, Perfect Image of the Perfect; Life, the Cause of the living; Holy Fount; Sanctity, the Supplier, or Leader, of Sanctification; in whom is manifested God the Father, who is above all and in all, and God the Son, who is through all. There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything superinduced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides ever.
Oh that's right, YOUR 'church' wasn't around back then...
Sorry, I'm feeling particularly snarky this AM.
I look forward to seeing how context explains a different message than what is apparent from the quote.
HossB86 is usually accurate with his assessments.
NorthMountain, are you going to give us more detail? What is the rest of the story? What does the Holy Roman Catholic Church teach about comparisons of Allah and God?
I don't think it's fair to say that Hoss is inaccurate and then simply walk away.
Also, what does "I have committed to error in this matter." mean?
Thanks.
On a somewhat related note, our older adult group visited St. Mary of Victories Church in South St. Louis yesterday, a beautiful church built by German immigrants in the 1840’s. The link below takes one to a photo gallery of the church.
http://smov.info/index.php/home/photo-gallery
And just who and where is a Prot arguing for his veracity based upon the premise of superior holiness (or ensured infallibility)? That is a Catholicism.
i will continue to use logic, history and and God’s own teaching church, Sacred Tradition, and the Word, as history has shown repeatedly, to be the truth.
Then you are not a faithful RC, for ascertaining the veracity of teaching based upon your judgment of what historical statements say is essentially what RCs condemn when evangelicals do so and find the unique claims of Catholicism to be unwarranted.
For instead,
It follows that the Church is essentially an unequal society, that is, a society comprising two categories of per sons, the Pastors and the flock...the one duty of the multitude is to allow themselves to be led, and, like a docile flock, to follow the Pastors. - VEHEMENTER NOS, an Encyclical of Pope Pius X promulgated on February 11, 1906.
— ...in all cases the immediate motive in the mind of a Catholic for his reception of them is, not that they are proved to him by Reason or by History, but because Revelation has declared them by means of that high ecclesiastical Magisterium which is their legitimate exponent.” — John Henry Newman, “A Letter Addressed to the Duke of Norfolk on Occasion of Mr. Gladstone's Recent Expostulation.” 8. The Vatican Council lhttp://www.newmanreader.org/works/anglicans/volume2/gladstone/section8.html
We are even told that we cannot know what Scripture is without placing faith in Rome:
Cardinal Avery Dulles: People cannot discover the contents of revelation by their unaided powers of reason and observation. They have to be told by people who have received in from on high. - Cardinal Avery Dulles, SJ, “Magisterium: Teacher and Guardian of the Faith,” p. 72;
It is the living Church and not Scripture that St. Paul indicates as the pillar and the unshakable ground of truth....no matter what be done the believer cannot believe in the Bible nor find in it the object of his faith until he has previously made an act of faith in the intermediary authorities..." - Catholic Encyclopedia>Tradition and Living Magisterium; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15006b.htm
So are you telling me that you ascertain the veracity of Cath. teaching based upon your judgment of what historical sources teach, or do you assent to it based upon the premise of ensured ecclesiastical veracity?
Remember, without reinterpreting, please tell us all what the bible says it the pillar and foundation of all truth...
Actually, the issue is what it supports, which is the Truth, which only Scripture is said to be the wholly inspired of God source of.
And if any reinterpreting is prevalent then it is by RCs (who also imagine that SS means only the Bible can be used, or that it contains all that can ever be known). For without reinterpreting, please tell us all where the Bible says the church is the basis of, and or the uniquely infallible authority on truth, which somehow Caths construe "pillar and foundation of truth" to mean. Else why do they quote it so much in support of that false premise?
And just the Greek words in this text (1Tim. 3:15b) say "ekklēsia zaō theos stulos kai hedraiōma ho / hē / to alētheia," which words are typically translated "church living God, pillar and ground the truth," with "hedraiōma" being a word only occurring here in the NT, undocumented either in the LXX or Hellenistic Jewish or secular Greek, (http://forums.catholic.com/showpost.php?p=6581518&postcount=11) coming from a derivative of hedraios, which is from a derivative of hezomai (to sit); sedentary (Strong's), but beware of the root word fallacy .
Hedraios itself does occur 3 times in the NT, and is translated as "stedfast" twice (1Co. 7:37; 15:58) and as "settled" once Col. 1:23, referring to believers being firm or or exhorting them to be firm.
In addition, along with the absence of "the" for "the pillar," the word usually translated "of" is also missing in "of the truth."
Thus both stulos and hedraiōma denote support, and could refer to the church being a pillar and base for the Truth, since it began upon Truth. Note that most of Scripture preceded the church, and which was established Scriptural substantiation in word and in power. It might also be postulated that as this is part of an exhortation to Timothy knowing how to conduct himself "in the church of the living God," perhaps 1Tim. 3:15b could refer to how Timothy conducting himself in the church, supporting and stedfast upon on the Truth.
Both of which is supported by the rest of Scripture, than using an obscure word (hedraiōma) to infer that the church is the basis of Truth or infallible authority on Truth, which is not stated.
The only sense in which the church is the pillar and ground of the truth is the way Israel was, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. (Romans 3:2) Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. (Romans 9:4-5)
But which is contrary to what 1Tim. 3:15 of so often used by RCs to support, that being the church of Rome being the basis and infallible authority on Truth, since nowhere is the novel premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility seen, promised or necessary in Scripture.
Instead, God provided and preserved Truth without this magisterium, and the the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, and promises of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation. (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23)
And instead souls followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)
It is all about Him! It should!
And the more one knows, the more one can see what He is preparing Israel for- The Kingdom. And that is why the enemy likes things like Thor’s Day..
It disrupts and changes how one thinks about the Creator and Redeemer - something that our Creator built into things like ‘1st Day’ of the month, etc, so we wouldn’t be able to take our minds off of who it is we are to serve.
Teach us to number our days, so that we may present to you a heart of wisdom. Psalm 90:12
Lots of wisdom out there to be revealed.
When I began to number my days and tell time like He does in Scripture, I saw numbers like 1260,1290 and 1335 pop off the pages.. Same for 30,60,100 in His Parable of the Sower.
Those are numbers that would be a blessing to understand in new ways, if one is seeking the Kingdom.
The 30,60,100 as segments of ‘time’ is something Judaism and Christianity can’t teach.
And they miss a foundational principle, in a foundational parable of His Kingdom, because of it..
Oh, if people saw it!
Mathew 13:52 -therefore every scribe who has been trained for the Kingdom of Heaen is like a householder who brings in out of his treasure what is new and what is old.
Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified. Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the LORD, and my work with my God. And now, saith the LORD that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, and my God shall be my strength. And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth. Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.
It means that I have committed no error in this matter.
Please play your "gotcha" games with someone else. I have zero interest in discussing this matter with you or anyone else like you.
Have a lovely day.
Big difference...We believe in the Trinity because God shows us the Trinity in His book...That's why we don't debate it...If the Trinity wasn't to be found in the scriptures you can be we would be ridiculing your fable of the Trinity...
No one showed this Gregory anything...If he believed in the Trinity it's because he read it in the scriptures...And then made up a nice little story to elevate himself and the goddess of heaven...
Funny thing, someone on this thread claimed Catholics don't have to believe in these Mary ghost stories...It's not required to believe them...
So, it's not required that you guys believe in the Trinity...Interesting...
Well, the issue here isn't my taking something out of context -- it's plainly written in CCC 841....
"841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day.""
Please note the bolding. Does "together with us" mean some other group than Roman Catholics? Does "Muslims" mean something other than Mohammedans? Does "together" mean something other than RCs and Muslims together adore the "one merciful God,..."?
If Muslims and Roman Catholics, according to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church, adore the ONE MERCIFUL GOD does that not mean either:
Muslims worship Yahweh? or;
Roman Catholics worship Allah?
Seriously -- it must be one or the other. If one studies what Muslims believe, one comes to learn that they do NOT worship Yahweh... they do NOT believe that Jesus is the Son of God.... these are not negotiable with Muslims. So....
Please tell me the out context issue that you seem to see but that the CCC does not present? 841 is plainly written and simple to read.
Hoss
Catholics and Muslims "adore the one Merciful God" -- "together with us" is hard to take out of context when it's written in plain language.
Like you, I'd love to hear the context.
Hoss
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