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You Don't Think Francis Can Change Church Doctrine? He Just Did.
Mahound's Paradise ^ | 9/8/15 | Oakes Spalding

Posted on 09/09/2015 9:28:44 AM PDT by BlatherNaut

Please excuse the provocative title, and do not misunderstand. Obviously, neither the Pope nor anyone else can change Church doctrine normatively. That is, Church doctrine remains true and unchangeable whatever people--without or within the Church--believe or say. In the same way the teachings of Christ or the Commandments themselves remain true and unchanging.

What the Pope can do, however, is to say that Church doctrine has changed or, more to the point, imply by his words or actions that it has. Or he can say or imply that Church doctrine wasn't what most people--including most people in the Church itself for almost 2,000 years--said or thought that it was.

I have the impression that some people actually believed that even this was impossible (and I admit that a few years ago, I might have been one of them). If the Pope, say, tried to mislead people on Church doctrine, he would burst into flame or have the Holy Spirit cover his mouth so he would sputter, or a Council would suddenly pop into being and instantly declare him anti-Pope. Or whatever.

But we know now that this isn't true. Do I say this based on some theological argument? No, it's an empirical claim. The Pope did it and nothing happened.

I am of course referring to the two just released Motu Proprio "reforming" the annulment process. The effect will be to concede that the marriage of two people can (contrary to the words of Jesus) be, for reasons other than the death of one of the spouses, be broken asunder.

Making it, as a practical matter, much easier for Catholics to have their marriages declared invalid won't merely legitimize "Catholic divorce" but will remove the Catholic Church as the unofficial leader of the marriage protection business and will weaken the institution yet again (as if we needed even more of that now) for everyone.

Of course, it is quite possible that this pontificate itself may be declared invalid at some future date, a possibility that many Catholics are, if not publicly discussing, certainly whispering more and more about. Ironic isn't it?

But that doesn't help us now.

The Pope didn't change the Church's doctrine on the indissolubility of marriage? He merely "reformed" the annulment process?

Oh, please. Stop it.

Everyone, everyone understands this as the Pope's attempt to show mercy to people in unhappy or "bad" marriages--or to people who bailed years ago and are now claiming that as the reason. The new rules go into effect on the first day of the Pope's own Jubilee Year of Mercy.

But if it's really only annulment--the accurate discernment of a false marriage that was invalid to begin with--then what does that have to do with mercy? If the marriage in question were valid, then there's no dissolving it (according to Church doctrine). But if it were invalid, then discerning that efficiently and fairly is a question of justice or truth, not mercy.

That the Pope intentionally and publicly associates it with mercy, shows how dishonest the whole thing is.

Will the greatly eased rules on annulments (something John Paul II no doubt would have been horrified with and Benedict XVI no doubt is horrified with) lead to millions of additional annulments? Probably not. We've gone too far even for that. Most Catholics in name don't give a damn about annulment anyway. Those who think the concept of annulment (as opposed to divorce) still has meaning (which of course it does) aren't generally the ones who would want to bail on their marriages anyway.

And obviously, annulment as "Catholic divorce" has been humming along at a pretty good clip for a generation or more, at least in the United States and a few other countries, though it has recently dipped slightly for the reasons given above. But the difference is that before there was a feeling that this was largely due to abuses of the process. And the cynical of course pointed this out at every opportunity. See (they argued), the Catholic Church claims that marriage is "till death do us part" but if you grease enough canonical palms or are a Kennedy or whatever, you can do whatever you want to do.

As of today, the Church isn't even claiming that marriage is a lifelong commitment. Not really. Now everyone can wig out of it (without being a Kennedy or greasing any canonical palms--though that was an exaggeration anyway). And lo and behold, the Church is perceived as finally stepping into the 20th century. What a breath of fresh air! How merciful!

But the doctrine is gone, the doctrine that, however much it may have recently been undermined, still appeared to many as a rock standing against the great modern flood of infidelity and, well, selfishness.

Oh, sure. It's not really gone. It's still there, whatever anyone thinks or even what the Pope himself wants you to think. Does that make you feel better?

Enough.

This is a disaster.


TOPICS: Catholic
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; annulment; annulmentisdivorce; apologia; apologist; banglist; catholic; catholicchurch; church; churchdoctrine; divorce; doctrine; epa; francis; globalwarminghoax; guncontrol; oakesspalding; popefrancis; romancatholicism; secondamendment
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To: MrEdd

This is a misconception. If he is helping to usher in the New World Order, he is affecting everyone.


21 posted on 09/09/2015 1:08:21 PM PDT by firebrand
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To: BlatherNaut

Did the Pontiff say he wanted to “fundamentally transform tbis” church?


22 posted on 09/09/2015 1:13:46 PM PDT by webstersII
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To: BlatherNaut

Taking a cue from the first Marxist POTUS, the first Marxist Pope is fundamentally transforming the Roman Catholic Church.


23 posted on 09/09/2015 1:45:37 PM PDT by Amagi (Lenin: "Socialized Medicine is the Keystone to the Arch of the Socialist State.")
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To: firebrand

Damascus hasn’t been leveled yet, and temple sacrifice in Jerusalem hasn’t been restored yet.

Too early to tell.

It’s God’s call anyway.
Our part is to stand fast in his word.


24 posted on 09/09/2015 2:56:53 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: BlatherNaut

Okay. Things are getting interesting.


25 posted on 09/09/2015 3:04:57 PM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (The "end of history" will be Worldwide Judaic Theocracy.)
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To: BlatherNaut; Sontagged; CMailBag; Safrguns
This author, Spalding, thinks he can do with bluster and sarcasm what he cannot do with methodical, factual analysis: convince us that Pope Francis has blown up the laws of the Church concerning marriage.

I instead recommend the counsel offered by Canonist Ed Peters (a name known and trusted by many faithful Catholics here), who takes a much more sober and objective view of the pluses and the potential problems of the process.

That's
Here (a first look at Mitis)(focus on pluses),

And

Here (a second look at Mitis)(focus on potential problems)

And

Here (Ed Peters' Facebook page is an ongoing source of insight AND a virtual gathering place for online RayBurkistas).

26 posted on 09/09/2015 3:12:51 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("He comes to judge the living and the dead, and the world by fire.")
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To: BlatherNaut

We are members of the Holy Eucharistic Apostolate, and they send us a newsletter every month, and in this most recent issue, it states:

[The following statement was made] by Cardinal Wojtyla.. at the Eucharistic Congress in Philadelphia in 1976. Here is what it said:

“We are now standing in the face of the greatest historical confrontation humanity has ever experienced. I do not think the wide circle of the American society, or the wide circle of the Christian community, realize this fully. We are now facing the final confrontation between the Church and the anti-church, between the Gospel and the anti-gospel, between Christ and the antichrist. The confrontation lies within the plans of Divine Providence. It is therefore in God’s plan, and it must be a trial which the Church must take up, and face courageously.”

Confirmation of this statement came from another source decades later. According to the web log “Rorate Caeli,” Sr. Lucia, the Fatima visionary, also spoke of a final confrontation between the Kingdom of God and the kingdom of Satan. In an interview on February 16, 2008, three years after the death of Sr. Lucia, Carlo Cardinal Caffarra, the archbishop of Bologna, told the monthly magazine “Voice of Padre Pio” that he had written a letter to Sr. Lucia “through her bishop as I couldn’t do so directly.”

He said that he didn’t expect an answer since he had only asked for her prayers, but then was surprised to receive a long letter with her signature. Among other things the Fatima visionary said:

“The final battle between the Lord and the reign of Satan will be about marriage and the family. Don’t be afraid because anyone who works for the sanctity of marriage and the family will always be fought and opposed in every way because this is the decisive issue. However, Our Lady has already crushed its [Satan’s] head.”

During her appearances at Fatima in 1917, the Virgin Mary said that praying the rosary was the key to peace in the world......

-from Volume XXIX Number 3


27 posted on 09/09/2015 4:52:02 PM PDT by mlizzy (America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe/Wade has deformed a great nation. -MT)
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To: mlizzy; All

“The Whole Truth about Fatima” by Brother Michel de la Sainte Trinité

VOLUME I SCIENCE AND THE FACTS
http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima1/

VOLUME II THE SECRET AND THE CHURCH
(1917-1942)
http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima2/

VOLUME III THE THIRD SECRET
(1942-1960)
http://www.catholicvoice.co.uk/fatima3/

Akita apparitions and Sister Sasagawa
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oBna_X9YuGY


28 posted on 09/09/2015 6:08:07 PM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Fr. Zuhlsdorf:

"...After reading through the new rules and after reading the interventions of the presenters at the presser this morning, and after talking with two trusted canonists by phone and after reading a few reactions online, I have to take seriously the summation point made by the canonist Kurt Martens, professor of Canon Law at the Catholic University of America. He was cited in today’s WaPo.

Martens said that essentially the Church is providing a path that looks like the Catholic version of no-fault divorce...."

Pope Francis has changed canon law procedures for “annulments”

The new legislation reduces the length of time required to obtain an annulment to less than half the time necessary to prepare for and contract a marriage. The emphasis on delivering expeditious annulments in cases where there is a supposed lack of faith, time in jail, disease, a short marriage, etc. will unfortunately result in a further erosion of doctrine via practice.

29 posted on 09/09/2015 7:04:05 PM PDT by BlatherNaut
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To: vladimir998
What EXACTLY is the doctrinal “change” supposed to be? A change in canon law procedure does not necessarily encroach on anything “doctrinal”.
Indeed.
30 posted on 09/09/2015 8:11:35 PM PDT by eastsider
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To: vladimir998
What EXACTLY is the doctrinal “change” supposed to be? A change in canon law procedure does not necessarily encroach on anything “doctrinal”.
Indeed.
31 posted on 09/09/2015 8:11:36 PM PDT by eastsider
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To: MrEdd

Just pointing out that what he says does not affect only Catholics anymore, if it ever did. People’s minds are more jelly-like now, soaked with entertainment and diversions. They are more likely to be influenced by what the pope does, even aside from the New World Order course that he seems intent upon. The old “itching ears” verse comes to mind.


32 posted on 09/09/2015 9:00:29 PM PDT by firebrand
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To: BlatherNaut

Oakes Spalding would have argued more persuasively if he had offered a reasoned analysis like Peters and Martens.


33 posted on 09/09/2015 9:35:22 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Still Catholic after all these years.)
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To: BlatherNaut
You Don't Think Francis Can Change Church Doctrine? He Just Did.

Oh; no!

We've been told this is IMPOSSIBLE many, MANY times here on FR.

What he did (or didn't) was to change how 'doctrine' is INTERPRETED.

We Prots have been told lots of times that we are our own popes.

Well; it looks like Francis is HIS own pope!!!



Oh... Wait...





34 posted on 09/10/2015 3:58:40 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: fishtank

For 2,000 years, the Bible has been misunderstood by those unwilling to accept our interpretation of it.


35 posted on 09/10/2015 4:05:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: MrEdd
Francis can only affect Roman Catholics.

And; evidently by the posts and replies seen on FR; not many of THEM!

36 posted on 09/10/2015 4:06:46 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
This author, Spalding, thinks he can do with bluster and sarcasm what he cannot do with methodical, factual analysis:

Then he'd be a good fit here; posting on FR.

37 posted on 09/10/2015 4:07:52 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: mlizzy
During her appearances at Fatima in 1917, the Virgin Mary said that praying the rosary was the key to peace in the world......

That's worked well.

38 posted on 09/10/2015 4:08:54 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Elsie

Elsie, one has to PRAY the rosary for peace in the world....


39 posted on 09/10/2015 6:09:14 AM PDT by mlizzy (America needs no words from me to see how your decision in Roe/Wade has deformed a great nation. -MT)
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To: Elsie

God help us!


40 posted on 09/10/2015 6:50:40 AM PDT by Mrs. Don-o (Still Catholic after all these years.)
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