Posted on 08/21/2015 7:07:55 AM PDT by Salvation
There is a common Protestant claim that there is one (sole) mediator between God and Man—Jesus. Therefore, they say, asking the saints to pray for us is useless, wrong, and maybe even sinful. Those who object, usually cite some of the following texts:
To this claim, we should first answer that we do not teach a substitutional mediation in invoking the saints, as if we were trying to go to the Father apart from Jesus’ mediation.
Rather, we speak of a subordinate mediation, in which we seek the prayers of the saints, or of one another. For indeed we could have no communion with them or one another if it were not for Jesus Christ, who as the Head of the Body, the Church, unites all His members and facilitates our communion with one another.
Objectors seem to speak of there being one mediator in an absolute sense, excluding any other possible interaction or any subordinate mediation. But consider that if there is only one mediator in an absolute sense, then no one ought to ask ANYONE to pray for him; and neither should the objectors attend any church, read any book, listen to any sermon, or even read the Bible (since the Bible mediates Jesus’ words to you).
A “mediator” is someone or something that acts as a “go-between,” acting to facilitate our relationship with Jesus. And though Jesus mediates our relationship to the Father, He also asked Apostles, preachers, and teachers to mediate, to facilitate His relationship with us.
Thus Jesus sent Apostles out to draw others to him. St. Paul says, How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ (Rom 10:14-15, 17).
And thus Jesus has His relationship with us mediated through His Word and through the Apostles and others who announce that Word and draw us to Him.
But since some Protestants say that there is absolutely only ONE mediator, and no subordinate or deputed mediators, there is therefore no need to ask ANYONE or ANYTHING to mediate. So should they not burn their Bibles, stop asking anyone to pray for them, and seek no advice, since NO ONE can mediate a single thing? No one can do this because there is, as they say in an absolutely unqualified sense, only ONE mediator—one and only one.
But for those of us who see that there is a subordinated mediation in service of Christ’s supreme mediation, the prayers of others, preaching, and teaching all make sense. And just as the Bible can mediate His presence and will, or as a preacher can mediate His word, so too can the prayers of others (including the Saints) convey my prayers to Him. And Jesus can mediate my prayers to the Father and give graces to me by mediating them through others.
Consider the analogy of the body, since the Church is Christ’s Body. Jesus has one Body and all the parts are connected through the Head, who is Jesus. Now consider your own body. All the members of your body have communion and unity through your head, your mind. There are different ways to have interaction with others. Perhaps someone will reach you through your ears by speaking, or through the sense of touch by tapping you on the shoulder, or visually by waving. Various members of your body facilitate (mediate) interaction with others in different ways, but it is all facilitated through the head of your body, your mind. So, too, do I confidently expect to reach Jesus in different ways: directly, or through one of His members (realizing that He Himself facilitates it).
And thus for us Catholics, our relationship with Jesus is a rich tapestry of relationships with all the members of His body, those who are with us here and now as well as those who have gone on before us but remain members of the one Body, the Church, with Christ our Head.
was that supposed to be some sort of humor?? If so, keep your day job.
I was trying to be as funny as you...
1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
And then you post this:
I and the Father are one. Why can't we use Mary and the saints as mediators between ourselves and Son/Father/Spirit????
That is funny because Jesus told you that He alone is the one and only mediator...
Perhaps you don't understand the Trinity...Yes, while Jesus and the Father and the Holy Ghost are one, they are also three...They are one but they are three...
You guys talk about the human body and soul (but leave out the spirit)...Does it not occur to you that the human body and the soul are one person, yet they are two persons (if you will)??? And in the case of scripture, they are three persons...
yes
Is He the mediator between myself and Him....if He is the one I'm trying to reach, how can He be the mediator???
1 Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ... One is less than many or two. If you don’t believe the Bible, The Word of God, you can be led to believe things like a priest can bring Jesus The Christ down from Heaven and place Him on a catholic altar in a wafer, to be continually sacrificed, body, blood, soul and divinity. And that is ... blasphemy.
With that premise, you are saying that this:
1Ti_2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
is not true...
The solution is NOT that when something doesn't make sense to you that you make something up to replace it that does make sense to you...
The solution is to keep on studying the scriptures because the answer will be in there...
You seem to forget that while Jesus was on earth, he was speaking to the Father who was in heaven...Like I said, they are one, but they are three...
The Catholic religion can not solve your problem...Only the scriptures can...
The Bible was written by heretics?
That’s where I inspire and get my truth from.
2 Timothy 3:14-17
14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.
Tradition vs. Word of God?
Which will you follow FRiend?
Your comment: “The Bible was written by heretics?”
That is not what was stated, instead the Word is misinterpreted contrary to the Truth.
Sacred tradition is from the teachings of Jesus and from the Apostles had heard from Jesus.
So do you only accept some of the teachings of Jesus from Tradition and the Bible and only those that you agree with?
I don’t buy the “theory” that the Holy Bible was misinterpreted.
I just gave you scripture from God’s mouth Himself regarding All scripture being God Breathed, Greek word “theopneustos”, meaning inspired.
And you’re going to toss it aside and lean on your own understandings and man’s “traditions”?
You seem to be consumed with dead bodies and assorted rituals.
The saints are living and in Heaven with God, but you state that they have no role as the Body of Christ. But then you practice your own religion. Perhaps a more through understanding of the Bible would help.
In asking saints in heaven to pray for us we follow Paul’s instructions: “I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone,” for “this is good and pleasing to God our Savior” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
One of the most important activities for a Catholic is prayer. Without it there can be no true spiritual life. Through personal prayer and the communal prayer of the Church, especially the Mass, we worship and praise God, we express sorrow for our sins, and we intercede on behalf of others (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Through prayer we grow in our relationship with Christ and with members of God’s family (CCC 2663–2696).
This family includes all members of the Church, whether on earth, in heaven, or in purgatory. Since Jesus has only one body, and since death has no power to separate us from Christ (Rom. 8:3–8), Christians who are in heaven or who, before entering heaven, are being purified in purgatory by God’s love (1 Cor. 3:12–15) are still part of the Body of Christ (CCC 962).
Jesus said the second greatest commandment is to “love your neighbor as yourself” (Matt. 22:39). Those in heaven love us more intensely than they ever could have loved us while on earth. They pray for us constantly (Rev. 5:8), and their prayers are powerful (Jas. 5:16, CCC 956, 2683, 2692).
Our prayers to the saints in heaven, asking for their prayers for us, and their intercession with the Father do not undermine Christ’s role as sole Mediator (1 Tim. 2:5). In asking saints in heaven to pray for us we follow Paul’s instructions: “I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for everyone,” for “this is good and pleasing to God our Savior” (1 Tim. 2:1–4).
All members of the Body of Christ are called to help one another through prayer (CCC 2647). Mary’s prayers are especially effective on our behalf because of her relationship with her Son (John 2:1–11).
God gave Mary a special role (CCC 490–511, 963– 975). He saved her from all sin (Luke 1:28, 47), made her uniquely blessed among all women (Luke 1:42), and made her a model for all Christians (Luke 1:48). At the end of her life he took her, body and soul, into heaven—an image of our own resurrection at the end of the world (Rev. 12:1–2)
Again, I didn’t say that the Bible was not inspired by God or wrong. Don’t use liberal logic and twist what was stated!
Some interpretations of the Bible and Sacred Tradition are wrong and are heresy. This is historical and well documented.
Whether you want to believe in the Truth or your your version of the truth is your choice.
“an image of our own resurrection at the end of the world (Rev. 12:1–2”
Hi Adsum. Could you please link me to a place where what you posted is taught?
Thanks either way.
SC
No matter how one diverts their attention every time someone offers to them the Truth of what God's Grace in Christ IS, no matter how many little prideful insults they may contrive to dismiss the messenger so they can ignore the message, God will not give up on them until He knows someone is beyond being born from above.
Here's a big clue for Catholics:
There is no such place as Purgatory. When a saint dies (and God determines sainthood, not some Magisterium of Catholic Bishops) their soul and spirit are present with the Lord, IN HEAVEN, as attested by God bringing them with Christ FROM HEAVEN at the Rapture (1 Thess 4:13-18). ALL BELIEVERS are born from above BY GOD"S GRACE and Him placing His Spirit in the believer when they are born from above. God does not send His family members to punishment that Jesus has already atoned with His Cross work and proven efficacious by the Resurrection.
There is no level of magic thinking which will negate or add to anything God proclaims; the magisteeringthem declarations are specious.
If one will look at the double-mindedness in one's own assertions, there is a big clue to be found:
Our prayers to the saints in heaven, asking for their prayers for us, and their intercession with the Father do not undermine Christ’s role as sole Mediator.
One cites that Jesus is the sole mediator and contradicts it int he same sentence! That, FRiend, is Magic Thinking.
Not at all, Iscool. Verga is attempting to make a point. I can give you my take:
First of all, at the time Jesus and His apostles walked the earth, the Jews based their Faith both on Sacred Writings and Sacred Tradition:
According to Rabbinic Judaism, the Oral Torah or Oral Law (Hebrew: תורה שבעל פה, Torah she-be-`al peh, lit "Torah that is spoken") represents those laws, statutes, and legal interpretations that were not recorded in the Five Books of Moses, the "Written Torah" (Hebrew: תורה שבכתב, Torah she-bi-khtav, lit. "Torah that is written"), but nonetheless are regarded by Orthodox Jews as prescriptive and co-given. This holistic Jewish code of conduct encompass a wide swath of ritual, worship, God-man and interpersonal relationships, from dietary laws to Sabbath and festival observance to marital relations, agricultural practices, and civil claims and damages.
According to Jewish tradition, the Oral Torah was passed down orally in an unbroken chain from generation to generation until its contents were finally committed to writing following the destruction of the Second Temple in 70 CE, when Jewish civilization was faced with an existential threat.[1]
The major repositories of the Oral Torah are the Mishnah, compiled between 200–220 CE by Rabbi Yehudah haNasi, and the Gemara, a series of running commentaries and debates concerning the Mishnah, which together are the Talmud, the preeminent text of Rabbinic Judaism. In fact, two "versions" of the Talmud exist: one produced in Jerusalem c. 300-350 CE (the Jerusalem Talmud), and second, more extensive Talmud compiled in Babylonia and published c. 450-500 CE (the Babylonian Talmud).
When Our Lord stated that what had been written of Him had been true, He was referring to His Life, approaching Death, and Resurrection being the fulfillment of what had been taught, read, passed down throughout the generations of the history of Israel, and through them of the time before Abraham.
Please also note that Our Lord Himself, as man, along with the Apostles, disciples and even St. Paul, were not instructed in the Jewish Faith sola scriptura, but by Talmudic Tradition as well.
At any rate, the Gospels as we have them were not agreed upon by early Christians as canonical until much later. There was not a Bible then, as we know it today. It's like an old conundrum where a fellow is thrilled to have found an ancient coin that had a mintmark of "100 BC" until he realized that would have been impossible. References Jesus made to scriptures would have been to what we now refer to as the Old Testament and the Talmudic teachings, from which all who studied had learned, as His listeners as yet had no New Testament to hear or read... I believe this is the point verga was attempting to make. If I've misread you, verga, I'm sorry, please feel free to correct me.
A note as to Matthew: in forming his canon, Luther did not give the same doctrinal weight to the three Synoptic Gospels as he did to that of John.
" In his preface to the New Testament, Luther ascribed to several books of the New Testament different degrees of doctrinal value: "St. John's Gospel and his first Epistle, St. Paul's Epistles, especially those to the Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and St. Peter's Epistle-these are the books which show to thee Christ, and teach everything that is necessary and blessed for thee to know, even if you were never to see or hear any other book of doctrine. Therefore, St. James' Epistle is a perfect straw-epistle compared with them, for it has in it nothing of an evangelic kind." Thus Luther was comparing (in his opinion) doctrinal value, not canonical validity. "
That's terribly sad. In other words, his followers needed no other books, including the other three Gospels, in which to find his doctrine. When you next read Matthew, think of this. What in the other Gospels is not worth teaching as doctrine? Ask yourself that question. Is there nothing to learn in St. Paul's Epistle to the Hebrews? By what authority did he make this statement? How could he just disregard the Old Testament as unnecessary as doctrine? Is It not all the Word of God, and thus important to Christian learning, if for that reason alone? Doesn't Jesus' references to the Old Covenant give It doctrinal value? How otherwise would we see what He has fulfilled?
This is rhetorical, friend, I'm not asking for a reply. But it really is worth thinking about. May God continue to bless you on your journey!
Because we don't need a mediator to get to the mediator.
Jesus told us to come to HIM. He invites us to come directly to Himself.
Matthew 11:28 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
No he's not because he's not Catholic.
We are each one person; uniquely created and given a soul by God Himself at the moment of our conception. God in the Trinity is a deep mystery which humans may only understand in a limited way. St. Athanasius wrote of It well, against the Arian heresy:
"And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons, nor dividing the Substance. For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three Eternals, but one Eternal. As there are not three Uncreated nor three Incomprehensibles, but one Uncreated and one Incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties, but one Almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by Himself to be God and Lord, So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say, There be three Gods, or three Lords.
The Father is made of none: neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son: neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before or after other; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three Persons are coeternal together, and coequal: so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped. He, therefore, that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is, that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God of the Substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and Man of the substance of His mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood; Who, although He be God and Man, yet He is not two, but one Christ: One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God; One altogether; not by confusion of Substance, but by unity of Person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and Man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead; He ascended into heaven; He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty; from whence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies...
It isn't easy, but we're only human, and God built into us a mind that is finite. Only He is infinite. Only He can create from nothing. We just do the best we can with what He gives us. (That last part I learned as I got older and became all the more finite! The older I get, the more I realize I don't have the answers - or the ability to remember them! 😀 )
Joy is a Fruit of the Holy Spirit, 'Cool: take it from an old campaigner- rejoice in it! Allow yourself to feel God's Love around you, as a loving Father's arms around His Child! He'll give you all you need to know; the opportunities to use it; the discernment to know when; and everything you need in between. From experience- try not to overthink things: follow Him, and you'll get all the info you need. It's human nature to want to know more- but it's God's Nature to be more than we can ever comprehend! May He bless you always!
Was that necessary? Unabashed bashing.
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