Posted on 08/21/2015 7:07:55 AM PDT by Salvation
There is a common Protestant claim that there is one (sole) mediator between God and Man—Jesus. Therefore, they say, asking the saints to pray for us is useless, wrong, and maybe even sinful. Those who object, usually cite some of the following texts:
To this claim, we should first answer that we do not teach a substitutional mediation in invoking the saints, as if we were trying to go to the Father apart from Jesus’ mediation.
Rather, we speak of a subordinate mediation, in which we seek the prayers of the saints, or of one another. For indeed we could have no communion with them or one another if it were not for Jesus Christ, who as the Head of the Body, the Church, unites all His members and facilitates our communion with one another.
Objectors seem to speak of there being one mediator in an absolute sense, excluding any other possible interaction or any subordinate mediation. But consider that if there is only one mediator in an absolute sense, then no one ought to ask ANYONE to pray for him; and neither should the objectors attend any church, read any book, listen to any sermon, or even read the Bible (since the Bible mediates Jesus’ words to you).
A “mediator” is someone or something that acts as a “go-between,” acting to facilitate our relationship with Jesus. And though Jesus mediates our relationship to the Father, He also asked Apostles, preachers, and teachers to mediate, to facilitate His relationship with us.
Thus Jesus sent Apostles out to draw others to him. St. Paul says, How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!” Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ (Rom 10:14-15, 17).
And thus Jesus has His relationship with us mediated through His Word and through the Apostles and others who announce that Word and draw us to Him.
But since some Protestants say that there is absolutely only ONE mediator, and no subordinate or deputed mediators, there is therefore no need to ask ANYONE or ANYTHING to mediate. So should they not burn their Bibles, stop asking anyone to pray for them, and seek no advice, since NO ONE can mediate a single thing? No one can do this because there is, as they say in an absolutely unqualified sense, only ONE mediator—one and only one.
But for those of us who see that there is a subordinated mediation in service of Christ’s supreme mediation, the prayers of others, preaching, and teaching all make sense. And just as the Bible can mediate His presence and will, or as a preacher can mediate His word, so too can the prayers of others (including the Saints) convey my prayers to Him. And Jesus can mediate my prayers to the Father and give graces to me by mediating them through others.
Consider the analogy of the body, since the Church is Christ’s Body. Jesus has one Body and all the parts are connected through the Head, who is Jesus. Now consider your own body. All the members of your body have communion and unity through your head, your mind. There are different ways to have interaction with others. Perhaps someone will reach you through your ears by speaking, or through the sense of touch by tapping you on the shoulder, or visually by waving. Various members of your body facilitate (mediate) interaction with others in different ways, but it is all facilitated through the head of your body, your mind. So, too, do I confidently expect to reach Jesus in different ways: directly, or through one of His members (realizing that He Himself facilitates it).
And thus for us Catholics, our relationship with Jesus is a rich tapestry of relationships with all the members of His body, those who are with us here and now as well as those who have gone on before us but remain members of the one Body, the Church, with Christ our Head.
non-Catholics refuse to believe Catholics when we provide this type of information, so it is best if you finds it out for yourself. Did you have others do your homework for you in school, and if you did, did you learn anything for it?
Throwing out part of the OT is a formal denunciation of any doctrine that claims to rely exclusively on Scripture so such folks are doomed to following Eve rather than Christ sooner or later anyway. It's just a matter time until they run across a portion of Scripture they choose to ignore or reinterpret to suit their Self.
The fact that for over four hundred years, contraception was regarded as a sin by Protestants one and is the perfect example. Glands dictated a change in how Scripture was interpreted so a new interpretation was adopted.
Apparently working out anything with fear and trembling doesn't apply to those who have the "Christian Liberty" to properly massage specific glands.
When you have sen Me, you have seen the Father.......I and the Father are one....Why can't we use Mary and the saints as mediators between ourselves and Son/Father/Spirit????
What's to answer? The HOLY SPIRIT, who inspired Scripture, tells us that there is only ONE mediator between God and man.
Why does the Msgr have a problem with that?
Why does he take exception to what GOD Himself told us? Doesn't he believe GOD?
Haha...I figured you were just blowin' smoke...
And why can't you use your cocker spaniel, or your toaster???
“This article is deliberately provocative toward Protestants.”
That is absolutely absurd.
Thanks for posting this and all your Msgr. Pope posts.
Too bad about the vandalism.
It does have to be there if you’re using sola scriptura. This is why Protestants always fail.
That is not sola scriptura. Sola scriptura comes after the canon. The canon is determined by a set of criteria. The criteria is deterministic, so it does not take a subjective authority.
I found an interesting chart.
Catholic Church view
Sola Scriptura view
I've seen longer lists, but the above link has 3 set of criteria.
After we determine canon, then we can appeal to the canon.
Just because a book says it is inspired by God, does not mean it's in the canon. What a silly idea.
God never explicitly wrote a list of the books of the Bible. I'm not worried about this. Who am I to judge God's ways?
What is Sola Scriptura? A belief that the Bible is the supreme authority in all matters of doctrine and practice.
Who can deny that God willed that men write the books of the Bible?
John 20: 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name
Sola Scripture is sufficient for salvation.
Please show me where belief in Peter's successors is good for anything?
That’s good busy work for you, right at your level of ‘discussion’.
LOL
“That is not sola scriptura. Sola scriptura comes after the canon.”
Where is that in scripture? Look at how Protestants just make things up when sola scriptura fails.
What a completely unbiased source! /SARC (SNERK)
Provocative. The article’s tone is disputatious, and its posting on FR drives a wedge between Catholic and Protestant FReepers (as the thread amply attests) at a time when the enemies of Christianity are flourishing. The Devil surely must be delighted. Triumphalist posts that stimulate doctrinal acrimony in an open forum are only going to promote, not reduce, “bashing” from all quarters. Enough.
I already told you I'm not interested...It's a waste of time...We KNOW what scripture is...
Besides, you're the one that wants to prove something...So prove it...
“prayers of the saints” possibly refer to those still alive here on earth.
If not, those saints would be in heaven, removed from the presence of sin, hence not concerned about anything we’re doing down here.
Just my take....peace.
Msgr. has a blog. Perhaps there’s a contact/comment area.
Really than you should have no trouble defining it according tot he Koine Greek.
Besides, you're the one that wants to prove something...So prove it...
Actually it is the non-Catholics that are proving me correct. non-Catholics need the "flexible definitions. Scripture means what ever non-Catholics say it means. "Is" doesn't mean "is", it means represents, etc.....
The body may die, but the soul is immortal and its destiny fulfilled. As the angels who watch over children do so, yet stand before the Throne of God, as Jesus said, why would a soul for whom Jesus died be stuck in oblivion now that Jesus made it possible for him to attain Heaven? Saul went to a witch to summon up Samuel. Wrong thing to do. But was it necromancy when Peter offered to set up 3 tents for Jesus, Moses and Elijah? Through Jesus, their souls transcended time, space and matter, and they appeared- even though Jesus was not yet crucified. Why? Simply because He willed it. He showed that He was the Fulfillment of the Law and the prophets. He came to fulfill, not to remove. We still must follow God's Commandments. We still must respect the Testament which tells us the history of our Salvation. He is both the Paschal Lamb Who saved His people from death and God's wrath and the scapegoat upon Which our sins were laid, while it was up to the sinner to make restitution. Those souls who waited and longed for His Coming went with Him to Heaven when He ascended. Who is to say that they cannot, as the angels do by nature, be present among us, yet stand before the Throne of God? If it is so for children, why not for older children of God such as we? Just as our birth led us into the world we live in, so does death lead us to the world to come: not to have our souls lie dormant, but to live on, without the constraints of the body, awaiting the time of Jesus' return, when all men of God will shall be united, and the should of the evil be cast into everlasting fire.
G-d ♡ bless you!
Grateful ✟ ✡
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