Posted on 08/09/2015 11:06:27 AM PDT by Old Yeller
The Bible never speaks of a place where one can go to be purified of his sin. Rather, it always speaks of a Person to whom we can go to be purified: Jesus Christ. God tells us that those who refuse to trust Christ to cleanse them from their sins are condemned: Whoever believes in Him avoids condemnation, but whoever does not believe is already condemned for not believing in the name of God's only Son (John 3:18). There are only two choices: Whoever believes in the Son has life eternal. Whoever disobeys the Son will not see life, but must endure the wrath of God (John 3:36; See also Revelation 20:15; Luke 16:19-31, especially verse 26). Anyone who accepts Christ is completely saved: There is no condemnation now for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1). Saying that there is no condemnation, certainly eliminates the flames of purgatory.
Another passage which clearly excludes the idea of purgatory is, their sins and transgressions I will remember no more (Hebrews 10:17). If, as the Bible says, God no longer remembers the sins of those who are in Christ, He does not punish them for these sins. To do so would be saying that Christ had not made full payment for them and that God the Father still remembered them. (See also Romans 5:8-11; Hebrews 10:14-18; Psalm 103:12).
Anyone who does not believe that Christ has completely saved him, has not completely trusted Christ to save him. That is, he does not believe that Christ's sacrifice has paid for all of his sins, and thinks he must pay for some of them himself. However, we are saved when we stop trusting what we can do, and start trusting Christ to save us.
The idea that Christ's sacrifice is not sufficient to cleanse us from all of our sins would condemn a great sinner such as the thief who was crucified with Jesus to suffer a long time in purgatory if not for all eternity in hell! Instead, there was nothing left over that Christ's death on the Cross did not cover. When the thief placed his trust in Christ, Jesus said to him, I assure you: this day you will be with me in paradise (Luke 23:43).
If purgatory existed, and the mass helped people to get out, the rich would have a tremendous advantage by being able to pay for masses to shorten their suffering. The poor instead, would be left to the mercy of the occasional priest who might say an unpaid mass for them. One ex-priest wrote, "If we really believed that the mass would save people from the flames of purgatory, would we make them pay for it? I would even save a dog if I saw one in a fire, and I would never even think of asking to be paid!"
Purgatory was evidently a pagan idea. Virgil, the pagan Latin poet who lived 70 - 19 B.C. divided the departed souls into three different places in his writings: One for the good, one for the damned, and a third where the less bad could pay for their sins. Since the idea of purgatory existed outside of the church before it came into the church, it is probable that it was brought in by contact with pagans like Virgil. There was a great influx of non-Biblical ideas into the church around 300 A.D. when the Roman Emperor Constantine took many unsaved people in as members of the church.
In any event, there is no mention of purgatory in the Bible. Some would try, however, to make the idea sound somewhat Biblical by referring to 2 Maccabees 12:41-45, a passage in one of the apocryphal books written between the times of the Old and New Testaments. These books were never accepted as part of the Hebrew Old Testament, nor quoted in the New Testament, but they are included in the Catholic Bible, though usually with an explanation that they are of a less inspired category. Apart from this passage in 2 Maccabees, the apocrypha is little used by the Catholic church to support a doctrinal position.
It is important to notice that this passage does not speak of purgatory at all, but actually condemns idolatry, particularly the practice of wearing little images on a necklace or such. Hebrew soldiers were found wearing this sort of thing after a battle, and their buddies, on making this discovery, realized that they had died in the sin of idolatry. They then counseled prayer for their souls. The Roman Catholic position is that prayer for them would have been unnecessary if they were in heaven and useless if they were in hell, so there must be another place. The logic seems good, but the result contradicts the clear teaching of the inspired Scripture. Contradicting inspired Scripture with a philosophical response based on an apparent inference from the Apocrypha is a very weak argument indeed. The very word "Apocrypha," which comes from the Greek word for hidden, has come to mean "false," or "of doubtful authorship."
Jesus dwelling in our hearts through faith, Jesus and the Father, and the Spirit coming to abide in us.
Christ in you, the hope of glory.
Our body, the temple of the Holy Spirit.
THAT is the real presence.
You’re messing with the demonic.
Dead humans are out of our reach and WE can’t help them.
Annulments and homosexual offending priests.
No Catholic is in any position to point any fingers about the moral failings of other denominations.
What in the world is that??? A complete contradiction of 1Cor. 3:15...Bodies don't get burned...Works get burned...
“If we neither give thanks to God in tribulations nor redeem our own sins by good works, we shall have to remain in that purgatorian fire as long as it takes for those above-mentioned lesser sins to be consumed like wood and straw and hay.” Ceasar of Arles, Sermon 179 (104):2 (A.D. 542).
You redeem your own sins eh???
You have copied and pasted so much it would take forever to refute all of it, and every bit of it can be and has been refuted with scripture...So there's that...
I’ve noticed that Jesus does not seem to be part of your economy.
You talk a lot about the *spirit* and your experiences but make virtually no reference to Jesus nor do you support your works with Scripture.
Only when you twist the scripture or even twist the Greek words the scriptures are translated from...
In 1Cor. 3 no one gets burned...It is only works that get burned...The scriptures are crystal clear on that...You couldn't find a purgatory in there with the Hubbell telescope...
In fact, there is no fire...It's a metaphor...
'so as by fire'...It's a type...A figure...
How can works be burned??? Of course they can't...The works are likened to wood and gold...They are not really wood and gold...And they are put into a fire...The wood and gold are not real and neither is the fire...
It's a metaphor which means and shows us that our unfruitful and bad works are destroyed while the good works stay...To be more specific, the record of our bad works is destroyed while the record of the good works stay...
There is no fire...There is no purgatory...
Have you confessed this sin of presumption?
You have ZERO right to be upset about ANYTHING your chosen church does!
Protestant was a word used to define Christians who were not Catholic...nothing at all wrong with the word nor definition.
The bad ass Catholics are, indeed Catholic, just not very good ones. All....All....All Protestants are either in error or at best incomplete in their Christian following because they are not Catholic, which is the ONLY....ONLY.....ONLY true form of Christianity on Earth.
They, as a group, have been bending the "rules" since their inception. Luther believed in transubstantiation and, in fact, was authorized to say a true Mass. Somewhere along the line they lost the Sacraments, Eucharist,Penance, decided that infants couldn't be baptized, valid marriages could be performed by whoever, Holy Orders could be achieved over the internet or by mail, people could, more or less, determine what Christianity did or didn't teach....on and on and on
Their religion does not comprehend the Bema Seat of Christ. That burning of ‘works’ takes place in Heaven, as Jesus hinted strongly in Luke 21:36. It is what the ‘Bride’ goes through before the wedding ceremony Each of us born from above ones will stand before Jesus. The ‘fire’ will refine and expunge. The refined will be like Gold, Silver, and Precious stones. The expunged will be like wood, hay, and stubble from wheat harvesting, the chaff. we tend to forget that that religion does not recognize ‘metaphors’ when it would erode the magicsteeringthem.
Pride is the most insidious sin. Those consumed by it haven’t clue to their bankrupt spiritual condition because they believe they are ‘better than that’.
An annulment means that it has been determined, by a group, that a valid marriage did not take place. Homosexual priests are no different than homosexual ministers, scout leaders, teachers....etc....they are homosexual and RESPONSIBLE for their actions.
You really don't understand Catholicism, do you???I can be upset by ANYTHING that the church does, but I must accept their dogma and interpretation of scripture....matters of faith and morals. I don't have to like altar girls, female scripture readers, church design, music selections....all that unimportant window dressing sort of stuff. There were many people in our parish who didn't like the last pastor, didn't like spending a million dollars building a huge parish hall....whatever.
terycarl,
I certainly wish you the best. I obviously think your assertions are all wet, but...
I find it admirable on your part.
Many FRomans pretend to have Biblical evidence to support the bogus teachings of they’ve been taught. They try to post facts (usually they miss the mark), they try to post Scriptures (usually without understanding the context) and they will often try to make a rational argument to support what they believe. Instead of just coming out and saying they believe it because they were taught it, they try to backfill it to make it sound as if it was actually taught in the Scriptures.
Not you. It is refreshing.
You just assert what you’ve been taught. You do it forcefully. You do it without facts. You do it without logical argumentation. You do it without evidence. Your posted message is clear: THIS is what I believe because they told me it is true and I accept it all!”
No fakery for you. No obfuscation. Just pure assertion.
Now, we disagree about the things you assert.
I think they are bogus. I’m not required to believe them just because some person in a costume taught them. I obviously cannot find a simple assertion convincing in any way. It would require prebelief in the same source. No surprise there.
Despite this disagreement, I find your honest assertion of what you believe apart from facts refreshing.
I wish you the best.
I also pray the same prayer for you that the Apostle Paul prayed for the Ephesians:
” I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in his holy people, 19 and his incomparably great power for us who believe.”
best
Yeshua said that you only have to heed his words, and those of his prophets.
He never mentioned any human corporation that should be heeded.
.
Misused pride is, indeed a problem.......pride in ANYTHING that one does voluntarily, that is not evil, is just fine. I am proud to be an American, could live wherever I like, proud to be a Catholic, could go to church anywhere, proud of my career, could have done anything.....I'm not proud to be white....I had no choice, not proud to be male, had no choice, not proud to be straight, had no choice....
They just ignore so much scripture...They obviously reject the mystery of the church which is Christ in us...
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
So we Christians, who are indwelt with the Godhead, are going to spend perhaps thousands of years in a place called purgatory where we will be in constant pain and suffering from the fire God has inflicted on us, with God inside of us...
We point to the scriptures day in and day out but they still don't see it...Is this why???
2Co 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
What the heck is it with Catholics and Catholicism that makes them think that God wants us to suffer?
Annulment is church sanctioned divorce.
The RCC can call it anything they want, but they are still breaking the marriages vows and approving of it.
Maybe they relate to the Crucified Christ and His sufferings more than they do the Resurrected Christ since he's generally always depicted in their churches as still on the cross.
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