The Church, or Christ?

The American Conservative ^ | June 5, 2015 | Rod Dreher

[don-o]

A Catholic priest once told me something an older priest said to him at a party for his archdiocese’s seminarians headed off to study at the North American College in Rome: “Those poor boys. They leave here in love with Jesus, and come home in love with the Church.”

[don-o]

Perhaps of interest to some. There is much food for thought here. Sometimes it seems to me that forests are missed on account of the trees.

Over the years, I have seen much antipathy aimed at Rod Dreher. I would be most interested in discussions, even rational and reasoned disagreement, about what he actually is saying.

[don-o]

ping

To my favorite Catholic.

[Old Sarge]

Thank you both, I’d be delighted to read a civil thread (for once...)

[If You Want It Fixed - Fix It]

If you lose sight of Christ in His Church, the correction is not to run to a different church and believe different things, but to correct your failing and realign, renew your focus on Jesus Christ in His Church. How can you receive the Eucharist daily or weekly and not have total focus on Christ?! How is that possible? Only by not attending mass or not praying the rosary - which is all about Christ- or hearing the Gospel weekly or daily in mass. Look at tje crucifix - Jesus is right there in image reminding you what He did for you, not missing.

This “convert” gives a strawman argument.

[don-o]

Here's a link to the post that Dreher mentions early on.

the Orthodox priest Andrew Stephen Damick’s blog entry about people who proclaim Orthodoxy without much Christ involved.

[don-o]

How can you receive the Eucharist daily or weekly and not have total focus on Christ?! How is that possible?

I believe that Dreher addresses that both directly and obliquely. Did you read the part about the difference between Icon and idol?

[Mad Dawg]

I suppose the first thing to say is that the Church is the body of Christ. And bodies have “accidents.” And people DO tend to get disproportionately attached to the accidents. It's a common temptation.

And there are some pretty spectacular accidents in the Catholic Church. The few times I've been to a big old Mass at the Basilica in DC I've been delighted by the different “religious” in their habits and by the diversity of ethnicities and whatnot. So I can see it.

And then for seminarians I bet the sense of being on the “inside” can be intoxicating. “I must be hot stuff— look isn't that Cardinal So-and-so? He's the deputy assistant to the sub-prefect of the congregation of arcane stuff, you know.”

I suppose some never recover from that infatuation.

[don-o]

Strawman? At least can you acknowledge that he is relating his own experience?

In case you missed this confession from the article....

“...Boy, is that true. I think it’s an immature convert thing. That’s exactly the kind of Catholic convert I was. It was not the Catholic Church’s fault, any more than Orthodox converts behaving this way is the Orthodox Church’s fault. In my case, as a Catholic convert, I found it so much easier to talk about the Catholic part than the Christ part. Don’t misunderstand: ideally, there should be no difference. But of course, there was. I fell in love with the Church, and lost sight of Christ — and I didn’t know that I had done this until I was put to the test.

[kosciusko51]

Don’t misread me here. I think there really are dimensions to Catholic (and Orthodox) Christianity that are very hard to find in other expressions of the Christian faith. But all that depth and complexity won’t do you any good if it doesn’t lead you to a transformative encounter with Jesus Christ. I have to admit that back then, in my 20s, as a new Catholic convert, I had a sneaking admiration for Evangelicals. Fairly or not, their piety struck me as simplistic and at times annoying, but they had something I lacked: confidence, and a lack of shame about their faith. I had to dress my commitment up in all the church robes and incense and philosophical categories to make it acceptable to myself, in public.

As a Protestant, I don't agree with all he says, but I like how he refers to us as "other expressions of the Christian faith". And I agree that "... all that depth and complexity won’t do you any good if it doesn’t lead you to a transformative encounter with Jesus Christ." In the same way that all doctrine is useless if it "doesn’t lead you to a transformative encounter with Jesus Christ."

Now, don't get me wrong, doctrine is necessary for understanding of the triune Godhead, and ultimately the question Jesus asked the twelve, "who do you say I am?" is the question we all must answer.

Grace and Peace,
K51

[avenir]

I found this bit VERY useful:

“There is a famous saying attributed to Francis of Assisi (but probably not spoken by him): “Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words.”

I have grown very much to dislike that saying, because it’s being used by many to mean, “Don’t go and preach the Gospel. Go live a good life and mind your own business. Maybe someone will ask you about it.” Yes, of course, our lives ought to reflect our belief in the Gospel, but we cannot leave that belief wordless. Preaching is fundamentally about language. You don’t see the Apostles going into all the world and setting a good example and hoping that maybe someone will ask about Jesus.”

I feel the same as Dreher. I want to PROCLAIM HIM! Then the world bites back. Hurts at first. Then the CHURCH bites back. Hurts continually.

Stop shackling believers with “niceness”, Church! That’s how the Zoe life of Christ in a new believer is quenched often...in service of the Bios. Is not our God a “consuming fire”?

[Claud]

I agree in the main. As a traditionalist I’ve noticed a gravitational pull to obsess about the politics of liturgy (Quo Primum! Bugnini! The Ottaviani Intervention!) sometimes to the detriment of the love of God. It’s a real temptation, and I have to fight it a lot

IMHO the best thing the Church could do is scrap the Novus Ordo entirely. Ok great. But once I’ve made my case on that....then what? Am I a bishop or a Pope that I can do anything about it? Meanwhile, have I prayed? Have I thanked God? Have I been kind to those who disagree? Have I carried out the corporal and spiritual works of mercy?

The devil attacks at our weak points, and if he can’t get coax us into heresy or mortal sin, he will subtly try and turn us away from God in the guise of “defending the Church” or something like that.

[editor-surveyor]

Churches are about the power and ideas of men.

You don’t send anyone to a church institution to learn about our savior.

If you want to study our savior, you prayerfully read the word of God.

This is true across the entire Christian spectrum.

Church institutions take the young that are “on fire” for the Lord, and soak them in ice water.
.

[editor-surveyor]

Zip up your fire suit!

[avenir]

Zip up your fire suit.

Please tell me that was positive, lol. Seems like we’re in agreement in your post above: “Church institutions take the young that are “on fire” for the Lord, and soak them in ice water.”

[don-o]

I feel the same as Dreher. I want to PROCLAIM HIM!

Firstly, thank you for posting.

Secondly, it's strange to me how my own mind works. When I read "PROCLAIM HIM!" my mind took me back maybe 60 years to street preachers we might encounter in small town East Tennessee (or even on the Market Square in Knoxville where the acoustics were awesome.)

I vaguely recall asking my Mama what that man was so mad about, and she probably did not really know how to answer except that is just the way it is. I had not up to then been exposed to such in Sunday School. But, it scared me and no doubt imprinted things that took a lot of years to undo.

So "use words" ????? ABSOLUTELY!!!!

Use them skillfully, precisely and lovingly.

[avenir]

Just thought of this re: Zip up your fire suit:

“For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.”—Galatians 3:27

Fire suit ON,

[mlizzy]

How can you receive the Eucharist daily or weekly and not have total focus on Christ?! How is that possible? -If You Want It Fixed - Fix It

From the article:

There is a famous saying attributed to Francis of Assisi (but probably not spoken by him): “Preach the Gospel at all times; if necessary, use words.”

I have grown very much to dislike that saying, because it’s being used by many to mean, “Don’t go and preach the Gospel. Go live a good life and mind your own business. Maybe someone will ask you about it.” Yes, of course, our lives ought to reflect our belief in the Gospel, but we cannot leave that belief wordless. Preaching is fundamentally about language. You don’t see the Apostles going into all the world and setting a good example and hoping that maybe someone will ask about Jesus.

The Gospel is spoken everyday at Mass. And the homily usually covers the message of the Gospel. I was struck while reading this piece that the words Eucharist and Blessed Sacrament never show up. Possibly the author could benefit by reading the words of Mother Teresa, who, in just over 50 words mentions both the Eucharist and the Blessed Sacrament:

"Each one of us is a co-worker of Christ - we must labour hard to carry Him to the hearts where He has not yet been known and loved. But, unless we have Jesus, we cannot give Him; that is why we need the Eucharist. Spend as much time as possible in front of the Blessed Sacrament and He will fill you with His strength and His power. Tell Him, 'Come to our hearts Lord and stay with us.' Then you will become the instruments of His love, peace and joy. -Mother Teresa to St. Alexander Parish, 7-15-96

http://adorationrocks.com

So I revert back to the italicized quote at the top from "If You Want It Fixed - Fix It."

[Salvation]

Priests lead people to Christ through the Church.

Both are necessary.

[avenir]

“So “use words” ????? ABSOLUTELY!!!! /Use them skillfully, precisely and lovingly.”

No disagreement, as far as a goal. But re: new, on fire “Sons of Thunder”, I say let it rip and let the LORD mould into someone more like the Disciple Whom Jesus Loved.

[editor-surveyor]

Yes, it was positive.