Posted on 07/20/2015 9:52:09 AM PDT by DWW1990
One of the most unpopular and difficult virtues of Christianity is forgiveness. As C.S. Lewis put it, “Every one says forgiveness is a lovely idea, until they have something to forgive.” Sadly, our personal lives recently have been an exercise in forgiving the unforgivable.
(Excerpt) Read more at trevorgrantthomas.com ...
Tell me, if a woman who had wronged you approached you and humbled herself at your feet, weeping and cleaning the mud off your feet with her hair, would you not consider that a great act of contrition?
I simply don’t know how else it could possibly be perceived.
The only takeaways from this episode concerning our discussion is that it strongly bolsters my point and that it demonstrates that God knows our heart and does not create a false wicket of requiring exact wording in our contrition.
OK friend, you have given me the big example of how contrition is not necessary, and I think you have to agree that on this example at least, the woman showed great contrition, in fact one of the most poignant acts of humility and contrition shown in the Bible.
I would ask that you take a few days and really think about what we have discussed, questioning whether you could be wrong on the issue, and then get back to me. I think you will find that throughout the Old and New Testament, that contrition is required in order to get right with God, which is fundamentally what it is to be forgiven.
I love to debate, but I don’t think that it would serve any purpose to continue at this time.
You cannot accept an apology that is not given.
If some creep steps on your toe and gets mad at you just to hide his own awkwardness, that is one thing but people can trespass against you with out being aware of it.
I would rather assume they were unaware of it and forgive them.
“OK friend, you have given me the big example of how contrition is not necessary...”
No, we weren’t speaking of contrition, we were speaking of asking for forgiveness. You have been asserting that forgiveness must be requested, so you cannot change your argument retroactively and make it to be simply about some act that shows contrition.
“I would ask that you take a few days and really think about what we have discussed, questioning whether you could be wrong on the issue, and then get back to me.”
I’ve thought about these things for years, I doubt a few days will change my opinion.
“You are bit all over the place, stating we should be Godly where its convenient and then that we shouldn’t be Godly, when it not convenient to your argument.”
No, I haven’t said that. There is a form of Godliness that is impossible for us to practice (forgiving people for sins against God’s law). That has nothing to do with convenience or my argument, it’s simply a fact. We aren’t God, so we cannot do that, we do not have the power or the authority.
“In the Lord’s prayer, Jesus was either a sinner or He was giving an example of how to pray to those present. I’ll go with the latter, and also state that He was providing an example on forgiveness.”
Agreed.
“The “forgive us, as we forgive those trespass against us” is as direct a comparison as you can get to God’s forgiveness vs. our own. Jesus is literally saying, give us Your forgiveness in the exact same manner that we provide our forgiveness to others.”
No Jesus does not “literally” say that, or it would be in the text and you wouldn’t need to insert your own words to try to make that argument.
“There is absolutely no biblical support for believing that the methodology of forgiveness is different.”
We don’t need Biblical support for this, because we are humans, so we all know firsthand that humans can forgive people without waiting for them to ask us first.
“I want God to forgive me when I am truly sorry for a sin and ask Him to forgive me. And that is the standard by which He wants me to forgive others.”
Where is your Biblical support for that? I can cite many verses that tell us God won’t forgive you if you do not forgive others, but I cannot think of a single one that tells us we only have to forgive those who ask for forgiveness. Where is that “loophole” explained?
“The only other way to read the Lord’s prayer is to assume that God has given me freelance option to create new rule by which He must abide, e.g. I forgive people after they hop around three times on one foot every year, therefore, if I hop around three times on one foot.... No, I must abide by God’s standard of forgiveness, not vice versa.”
Nonsense, the verse simply asserts that we have forgiven those who trespass against us. It makes no claim about us making those who trespassed meet any standard whatsoever, so to assert anything about standards in relation to that verse is to insert something into the text that isn’t there.
“I’m not sure what other demonstration of that you would require.”
An actual request for forgiveness. That is what you asserted was necessary, and that is what is missing from the example I provided.
“Jesus demonstrated that being in state of remorse, humility, and repentance was enough for her to be forgiven and that she did not have to offer an animal sacrifice at the Temple for that to happen.”
So if that is all that is required, then she did not have to ask for forgiveness, and you have disproved your own argument.
Now you are crossing into being disengenuous in order to try to protect your position.
I never said or implied that verbal contrition had to be spoken. I said that a person had to want to be forgiven. There are many ways to communicate that, especially to an all knowing God, but also to another person.
Now you need to do some serious praying and contemplation on this. After that, I'd be happy to take it up again.
Repentance doesn’t mean feeling sorry for your sins, nor to promise not to do them anymore.
The issue is more formally the issue of Justice and Righteousness.
Jesus didn’t pay a blank check of forgiveness. Instead, He had all sins in humanity imputed upon Him at the Cross and was Judged for all those sins. From God the Father’s perspective, the Judgment has now been satisfied. Prior to that Judgment, God could not in His Perfect Holiness, accept and forgive all sin.
Now that it has been judged and we have been redeemed, He is now free to forgive our sins upon our facing Him and confessing our sins (recognizing the Gospel message) to Him through faith alone in Christ alone.
The change in repentance is the changing the object of thinking in one’s mind. When we face Him, instead of ourselves, and accept He died for our sins and place them before Him, He is sure and just to forgive us those sins.
You are correct. All anybody needs to do is to accept it through faith in Him.
Interesting...I never thought about it that way before. Do you think the Father DID forgive those mocking people at the cross? Jesus asked Him to, so I’m thinking He did. Do you think those people went to heaven, even if they never confessed and repented of that sin?
I know Christians who have loved ones who have never confessed or repented of their sins. These Christians are in agony, terrified that their loved ones will never go to Heaven because of this. Does this mean there is hope those people will be forgiven, anyway, just like the ones mocking at the cross?
“Do you think the Father DID forgive those mocking people at the cross?”
Well, only God knows that. I don’t think we can presume God forgives people just because we ask Him to, or even if Jesus asked Him. I think we are told to forgive, and to pray for others to be forgiven, regardless of whether that will lead to their salvation or not. I think it’s more for our benefit than for the person we are forgiving or praying for, because the Bible states several times that we should forgive others, so that we may be forgiven, as if our own forgiveness and grace is dependent on it.
We need to forgive the unrepentant as well. we are not God nor do we have His wisdom and discernment. By not forgiving all, even though they are not repentant we harm only ourselves.
However forgiving does not mean excusing the act, removing the consequences of the act, or saying what the other person did was not wrong It simply means you let go and let God deal with it.
God holds us to a lower standard We do not have His wisdom or discernment nor do we know who has truly repented We are commanded to forgive and let Him deal with it. What a relief that is.
My wife and I were having a talk about this and she pointed out that we would be much more likely to forgive someone of a past transgression if we just heard they were diagnosed with cancer.
Then the conversation went to: why? The transgression hadn’t changed. The lack of repentance hadn’t changed.
I supposed it would just be compassion for their plight.
Still noodling that one over -
Actually, the very definition of forgiveness is that you remove the consequences of the action, otherwise forgiveness is meaningless. i.e. “Yea I forgive you, but I’m still going to hold a grudge, tell everyone you are horrible, and have you arrested.”
And as I’ve pointed out many times already in this thread, forgiveness is a reciprocal act. You can’t force forgiveness on people who are not seeking forgiveness in some manner. And nowhere in the Bible do I find any suggestion to the contrary. See Luke 17:4. The capacity to forgive the truly contrite is the teaching, not immediate and unconditional forgiveness.
Logically, the entire concept of forgiveness becomes meaningless if its applied without contrition.
If immediate and unconditional forgiveness is what we are commanded to do and Jesus was perfect, why did he flip the tables of the money changers and chase them with a whip?
Mark Twain once said, “Why didn’t God forgive Adam and Eve seventy times seven?” He was probably being snarky, but it did get me to thinking. I figured God DID forgive Adam and Eve. I fully expect they are in Heaven now. BUT...they still had to suffer the consequences of their sins. Adam still had to work, Eve still had pain in childbirth, etc. I don’t see a conflict with forgiving someone, yet still wanting and expecting them to suffer the consequences of what they did; for instance, someone robs you and still has to go to jail, pay a fine, whatever the legal punishment is.
Many here have spoken to the forgiveness of debt. Is debt forgiven if it still has to be repaid?
No. But debt is a cut-and-dry thing. You ask somebody to loan you money, they agree, later you say, “I can’t pay you back,” they say, “Okay, the debt is forgiven.” I’m thinking about wrongs done to a person...a crime committed against them, a betrayal, something like that. You can forgive your spouse for cheating on you or the thief from stealing from you, but there are still repercussions. The offender does not always get off scot-free, even though the victim has forgiven.
Acts are not undoable, but forgiveness, true forgiveness holds no further repercussions from the forgiver.
Acts are not undoable, but forgiveness, true forgiveness holds no further repercussions from the forgiver.
...”I would rather assume they were unaware of it and forgive them”....
Two of my family members and I were just discussing this yesterday....I think in families what you stated needs to be practiced all the more and just assume they didn’t mean it. If it’s disturbing then just talk about it, which does not always mean forgiveness rather something was misspoken or misunderstood and an apology, if even that, is more sufficient.
Not everything is matter of forgiveness.....we forget we are made of the dust of the earth....God doesn’t....
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