Posted on 07/20/2015 9:52:09 AM PDT by DWW1990
One of the most unpopular and difficult virtues of Christianity is forgiveness. As C.S. Lewis put it, “Every one says forgiveness is a lovely idea, until they have something to forgive.” Sadly, our personal lives recently have been an exercise in forgiving the unforgivable.
(Excerpt) Read more at trevorgrantthomas.com ...
Where does Christ tell us to forgive those who have done wrong, continue to do wrong, and are totally unrepentant in doing wrong? ————
I believe it was On The Cross. “Father forgive them.....”.
I know what you are saying absolutely. Jesus in his last agony exhibits for me that I would not wish to pass on with unforgiveness of anyone, on my soul. In every day life, however, I have heard exactly what you allude to here, that without repentance from the offender against me, there is not a path for outwardly forgiving them. I don’t know about that.
Also, I have learned about forgiveness that does not mean you have to entertain their incessant abuse for a moment, or hug them up as a loved one, no, but of the kind of forgiveness that simply wishes them no ill, does not condemn them to Hell, and can hope for their conversion toward me.
ISIS would be a different matter. We must despise their brutality as Jesus must have despised his torturers and crucifiers. He did not fight what He had already ordained in Heaven for our Salvation, but we are not held to that standard as many warriors and soldiers were faithful to Jesus.
I used to think the same way.
I suggest James MacDonald’s two part audio, or DVD series “Have The Funeral” that you can get online.
...or...
Part 1http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=have+the+funeral+macdonald&FORM=HDRSC3#view=detail&mid=CC50B0EB206F5F4FDEFFCC50B0EB206F5F4FDEFF
Your question is specifically answered in video number 2 at the 11:15 point
...or a quick bible search...
EXCEPT for Luk 17:4, which has a “repet” requirement.
no conditions on forgiveness anywhere in the NT...
Hope this blesses you
j
OK, I know I’m really going to stir the pot on this one, but I think the whole “forgive the transgressor in-spite of their being totally unrepentant for the act” is a form of self-glorification and not in a good way.
Essentially, look at me, I am so devout, such a wonderful Christian, that I forgive everything even when no one wants it.
To me it is not a good example. What do you then tell non-Christians? Do you say I’m so good that you don’t even have to repent to get my forgiveness, but Jesus and God aren’t as good as me, they are actually looking for you to repent. Or do you tell them that God forgives everyone for everything unconditionally, and therefore there really is no Hell?
Luke 17:4 speaks to the capacity to forgive, which is a different matter. I’ve looked at it in detail.
There are some things which don;t require forgiveness...but our society is full of people “apologizing” or demanding so.....what whimps! The media jumps on it politically....the churches do spiritually...
At what point then is the Spirit of the Lord Free to move us? There’s more to ‘snuffing out’ the Spirit of God then many care to see and realize.
“In most cases, it would not be hard for us to forgive another person if that person came to us, confessed, humbled themselves, and asked forgiveness. But all too often that does not happen. Heinous crimes are committed, and the offender sits in the courtroom all smirking and defiant. Must the victims still forgive him?”
Jesus himself gave us an example of that circumstance, when he was being crucified, even as they sat mocking Him, He prayed to ask the Lord to forgive them.
I watched that section of the video and I don’t see anything new.
First, he points out that the need for repentance is mentioned and done so clearly, which rather bolsters my point, but then he goes on to point out that it is not always mentioned.
Fair enough, but the very meaning of “forgiveness” especially in the biblical sense, includes repentance in its fundamental meaning. We have other words for giving amnesty without repentance, such as pardon, excuse, and absolve.
In essence forgiveness is a reciprocal action, you cannot have a reciprocal action without a preliminary action. For example, if I say I returned something I do not have to precede that statement by saying that I received something, both actions are included in the word “return”.
“Followed to its logical end, this would mean that having a prison system is unethical.”
I don’t think so, because personal forgiveness isn’t really related to justice that society metes out.
What would happen if you took it to its logical end would simply be that you wouldn’t be keeping track of who wronged you and how, and you’d just get on with living your life.
~ Saul Alinsky, Rules for Radicals
There is no way someone can live up to every passage in the Bible, and the Left knows it.
True, and what did God say? We don't know. Point is that there is no indication that they sought forgiveness, nor received it. Let's hope they did. Jesus prayed that that a future event would occur. That is the capacity to forgive. I get that. But if no repentance is necessary for God's forgiveness, then there is no Hell and I don't quite understand Baptism or for that matter Christianity.
I don’t think so, because personal forgiveness isn’t really related to justice that society metes out. What would happen if you took it to its logical end would simply be that you wouldn’t be keeping track of who wronged you and how, and you’d just get on with living your life.
What is just is just, you cannot have one standard for the state and another for the individual. If Christians are to forgive all sins immediately and unconditionally, then Christians cannot create an entity to punish those individuals. That makes no sense. That is a just a convenient way to skirt the issue.
And not holding grudges is not the same as forgiveness. I am blessed in being almost incapable of holding a grudge, yet I do not forgive unrepentant transgressors. I find the notion silly. Forgiveness is the act of accepting repentance. I cannot accept that which is not offered.
“I have heard exactly what you allude to here, that without repentance from the offender against me, there is not a path for outwardly forgiving them.”
Lack of repentance isn’t an impediment to forgiveness, because repentance is for the benefit of the person who has committed the wrong. If they don’t repent, they will just need to be forgiven again and again. However, if they refuse to repent, that doesn’t stop anyone from forgiving them.
Think of it as a debt, like some translations of the Lord’s prayer word it, “forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors”. The person who is owed can forgive a debt, whether the debtor comes to beg forgiveness or not. However, if the debtor doesn’t turn away from whatever incurred the debt in the first place, the forgiveness will be of little help to them, because they’ll just get into debt again.
I think the message is, if you want to be like Christ, you practice forgiveness (towards our fellow man) as He did.
ok.
...then there isn’t one verse that requires another person to repent before you forgive him/her.
Jesus paid the full price for the sins of the whole world 2000 years ago (1John 2:2). It’s a blank check of forgiveness signed in Jesus perfect, eternal blood.
All anyone has to do is take it.
I didn’t even know what “repentance” meant when I received Jesus. All I knew was I needed Jesus and when I asked him to come into my heart he did. I didn’t have to change or clean myself up or show some kind of “repentance.” All I had to do was call out on Jesus “just as I am”.
“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Rom 10:13). I’ll vouch for that.
But you have to take it. How? Ask for it, right? That's my point. Can I accept your apology, if you don't offer me one? No I cannot.
“True, and what did God say?”
It doesn’t matter how the Father responded, for the purposes of this question. All that matters is that Jesus Christ showed us that we can forgive those who continue to sin against us, and those who mock us and are unrepentant, and we can even beg forgiveness on their behalf to our Father. This is the example set for us by the Lord.
“But if no repentance is necessary for God’s forgiveness...”
We’re not talking about God forgiving, but about ourselves, so we don’t need to be speculating about that.
“What is just is just, you cannot have one standard for the state and another for the individual.”
Of course you can, because I, the individual, am the only one who determines what is just for me personally. I can decide to forgive or not forgive based on whatever standard pleases me, for it is my business and my business alone. When it comes to the state, that argument cannot be made, because the state’s decisions on justice impact everyone.
“If Christians are to forgive all sins immediately and unconditionally, then Christians cannot create an entity to punish those individuals. That makes no sense.”
No, what makes no sense is to think that because I have forgiven someone, the state shouldn’t punish them. That is nonsensical. When someone commits a crime, they have trespassed against both the victim and society as a whole. The victim can forgive his portion of the debt, but that doesn’t forgive society’s portion, because the individual has no right to forgive that debt.
“And not holding grudges is not the same as forgiveness.”
Well, they are very closely related. It is not possible to hold grudges if you have forgiven those who sinned against you, and it is not possible to forgive all who sinned against you and still hold grudges.
“Forgiveness is the act of accepting repentance.”
No it is not. Repentance is the act of turning away from sin, of changing your behavior. It is not the act of asking forgiveness, although the two hopefully should go hand in hand. Someone can repent and never ask forgiveness, or they can ask forgiveness and not repent. I can also forgive if forgiveness is not asked for, and if repentance is lacking.
For example, say you owe me a debt of 100,000 dollars. I can forgive that debt even if you are too proud to come to me and tell me that you can’t repay and ask my forgiveness. It’s entirely my prerogative to forgive, you do not need to do anything in order to receive it.
Luke 17:4
4 Even if they sin against you seven times in a day and seven times come back to you saying ‘I repent,’ you must forgive them.”
And again, “forgiveness” is a reciprocal action.
You cannot accept an apology that is not proffered.
What is the point of concern on unrepentant sinners if they’ve already been forgiven? How can anyone die in sin?
OK, I’ve got an issue with what I consider to be a current misinterpretation of Christian instruction regarding forgiveness.
I have been married three times, a total of 51 years.
My first wife of nine years liked other men and I forgave because I was becoming to like other women, not really forgiveness just an agreement.
But still it is like the saying( don`t criticize another man until you walk a mile in his shoes )
My second wife of twenty one years was forgiving and was what I needed although I had no need to forgive her, she was great but I lacked .
My third wife of twenty one years just divorced me about six months ago, she told every one she could not forgive me.
For what? I really don`t know except that it amounts to me talking back, although I have forgiven her many times for things she did which I guess was unawareness.
Every one if they have the spirit of God in them wants to be forgiven but some times just can not or will not ask.
I would like to ask a few people for their forgiveness but it is humanly impossible.
Does God forgive unrepentant sinner? No.>>>>>>>>>
God can see the hearts and knows but we can not do that so I guess we just have to tell our selves we forgive, but do we really?
Yes I have lived one hell of a life, and need forgiveness more than any one so whether any one asks or not I forgive.
But it would make me feel more like a somebody if some one would ask.
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