Posted on 07/08/2015 6:24:59 AM PDT by Gamecock
This thread is offered as a rebuttal to the thread titled 10 Things Catholics Are Tired of Hearing
Source
Article one: Answering 10 Catholic Complaints (part 1)
Article two: Answering 10 Catholic Complaints (part 2)
Some website called catholic365.com put up this article last month which was making the rounds in social media. I had never heard of the site, and I don’t make it my habit to read Romanist blogs. However one of my Catholic friends put it on her Facebook wall and was very happy about it. I read it, thought it to be a completely ridiculous set of arguments premised on falsehoods and fallacies (in other words, par for the course for Rome’s apologists), and moved on with my life. Why waste the brain cells?
However, it kept coming up. I would see it again and again. Most people I encountered touting the article acted like this was some sort of trump card in Romanist apologetics. I realized that even though I believed it to be amateurish (and my formerly catholic wife found it to be laughable), this was becoming red meat thrown to the catholic populous. The time had come to deal with it and expose it for what it really is.
It is called “10 Things Catholics Are Tired of Hearing.” Now, I’ll say this… if these are the types of arguments they hear all the time… guys, we need to do better. Most of what is responded to in their post are issues that eat around the edges and don’t go after the heart of why Godly men left this apostasy 500 years ago. Maybe this is because most evangelicals don’t share their faith, or don’t know their faith. Maybe this is because most evangelicals can’t articulate the Gospel. Maybe this is because most evangelicals like to discuss the small stuff and are scared of the “big” stuff. I don’t know, but what I DO know is that we have to do better. Each and every time we talk to a Catholic, the issue we should be discussing is the Gospel. Rome is heresy because it has a wrong Gospel. That wrong Gospel leads to 6 billion (probably) other heresies, but if you can make them see their need for the right Gospel, the rest will come easy. Keep your eyes on the prize, guys.
Nonetheless, let’s deal with the article:
1.“Catholics worship statues.”This stereotype is painful to hear. Not only is this completely false, but it is ludicrous. Despite the fact that there are 801 millions Protestants world-wide, according to the Pew Research Center, my rant will be geared towards our brothers and sisters in the United States. In this country, approximately 51.5% of people are Protestant Christians. Realistically, most of these families have pictures in their home, which is completely normal, right? Right. They have pictures of their loved ones, both living and deceased. Is it not hypocritical then to say that Catholics are idol worshipers, when these families have portraits of their loved ones on the walls? If these Protestant families can have pictures of Uncle Bernie and Mawmaw hanging on the wall, then most certainly the Church can present pictures of our beloved Jesus, his disciples, and the saints.
Yeah right. Anyone who has walked into a Catholic church before knows this is plainly ridiculous. I’m an Italian American who grew up among a Catholic family. The entirety of the religion seemed to me to be one form of statue worship after another. My relatives would pray to a statue at night, pin money to a statue at a festival, put a statue in their yard which was never supposed to fall over, put statues above their bed, light candles to statues in church, and construct ENTIRE PRAYER SERVICES to a statue.
Just look at the horror in the faces of the people when this happened:Link
I mean, good grief!
But, let’s deal with their argument here. Yeah, we all have pictures of Uncle Bernie and MeeMaw in our homes. We might value those pictures a great deal. We don’t say prayers to those pictures. We don’t light candles to those pictures. We don’t think those pictures are anything other than… PICTURES. It’s not the same thing. I may have a picture of my Mom in my house, but my family isn’t carrying a statue of my Mom into the family room on a Wooden Platform and singing songs about it. Give me a break!
2.“Catholics pray to Mary instead of God.”
This is a very common misconception throughout the Protestant community, and while I can understand why it is, I am also disheartened that many jump to such a harsh conclusion of the Catholic faith. We don’t pray to Mary, we ask her to pray for us, just as a Protestant asks their deceased grandparent/parent to watch over them.
You don’t pray to Mary, huh? Are you sure about that?
These things littered the funerals of my childhood and took me less than a minute on Google to find. I remember collecting them and keeping them like baseball cards. I used to get excited when there would be new ones at someone’s funeral. They had them for all of the “saints”, but especially for Mary. Praying to Mary is the most catholic thing about being catholic. Claiming you don’t pray to Mary is utterly absurd and demonstrably false. And for the record, if a Protestant friend of mine was asking a deceased family member to watch over them, I’d plead with them to repent.
3. “The saints can’t hear your prayers, because they are dead.”I beg to differ. Since when is anyone who is in Heaven considered dead? We call it the afterLIFE for a reason. In fact, there is biblical proof that the saints can hear our prays:
-Revelation 5:8 “And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of God’s people.”
-Revelation 8:3-4 “Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all God’s people, on the golden altar in front of the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of God’s people, went up before God from the angel’s hand.”
Oh the eisogesis!
Revelation 5:8 has elders holding bowls of incense which are prayers of the saints. Revelation 8:3-4 has the prayers represented as incense again, and this time offered up by an angel (saints are nowhere to be found). At what point in either verse do we see those offering the incense hearing the prayers? It’s just not there. The reason you think it’s there is because you want it to be.
4. “Mother Mary isn’t important; she’s just like anyone else.”
If our Blessed Mother isn’t important, then every female would have had an immaculate conception. For this reason, that is why the declarative statement above doesn’t make sense. Of course Mother Mary is important, she gave birth to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. What is so amazing about the Catholic faith is the fact that we recognize the importance of Mary, and we honor her accordingly. She is a role model and saint for all Christians to look up to, because she submitted to God completely. Until the day another woman gives birth to Jesus, no one will ever be just like Mary. She is a very special, holy woman.
I have no doubt Mary plays a special role in the life of Jesus. The Lord and Savior of the world called her Mom. No doubt he loved her like I love my Mom, only He was a perfect son and I’m… well… not. None of this in anyway confers anything unique about Mary as a person. She was a lady like any other. She was favorable in the eyes of God, but so was Ruth. She was used of God in a special way, but so was Esther. She was a Godly woman, but so was Lydia. Ruth, Esther, and Lydia were just women. Sisters in Christ, no doubt! Honorable women? Absolutely! Higher than all other humans, co-redemptive, and mediatory? No way!
Just a little FYI for our Catholic Friends, Mary sinned and thought her son was crazy: “{21} When His own people heard of this, they went out to take custody of Him; for they were saying, “He has lost His senses.” … {31} Then His mother and His brothers arrived, and standing outside they sent word to Him and called Him. {32} A crowd was sitting around Him, and they said to Him, “Behold, Your mother and Your brothers are outside looking for You.”” {Mar 3:21, 31-32 NASB}
Wait wait wait… you mean Jesus had BROTHERS too? So that means Mary wasn’t a perpetual virgin either? How ’bout that! Funny things happen when you read the Bible.
5. “Catholics made up all their rules.” Every single tradition we have in the Catholic Church, namely during Mass, has biblical roots. Not to mention the fact that Jesus was the founder of our Church. I don’t know about you, but Jesus doesn’t make mistakes.
Every single tradition has Biblical roots, huh? Great. Show me the part of the Bible about Mary being a co-redeemer. Show me the part of the Bible where the priest is another Christ. Show me where we are to pray to the saints. Show me the need for a re-sacrifice of Christ from Scripture. Explain to me from the Bible the practice of indulgences. Let’s start with these five things and see how well your “biblical roots” hold up.
Continuing on the theme from yesterday, we need to avoid these types of arguments when talking to followers of false religions such as Roman Catholicism. The issue is and always will be the Gospel. Roman Catholics do not believe the Gospel in the Bible, they believe a false one. We ill-serve our Lord if we center our evangelism to Catholics on how they’re wrong to pray to Mary (or whatever may come up) and miss the Gospel. Preach the Gospel, and if they have been appointed unto belief, they’ll stop praying to Mary soon enough.
That said, we can effectively deal with these types of complaints from Rome and its apologists. They don’t have good arguments, and too much of their silly apologetic is built upon falsehood and revisionist history. So, continuing with the catholic365 article…
6. “God said to confess sins to Him, not a priest.” This one is a personal favorite of mine. Drum roll please.-James 5:16 “Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.”
It is true that we pray directly to God, and ask Him to forgiveness, however for sins (mortal) we do as Jesus commands and confess it to one another (our priests). Jesus said this directly to his disciples, so through Him, they were able to forgive sins. This power passed down to every priest, and so on and so forth. That felt good.
Well, we’re all glad you feel better. While you have your Bible open to James, let’s examine the context of what you say is the justification for the abomination that is Catholic Confession. Verse 13 begins a new thought for James as he asks if anyone is suffering, and directs those sufferers to pray. The cheerful? They should sing praises. The sick? They should call the elders who should pray for the sickly and anoint them with oil. There’s no power or anything special in the oil, by the way. It was a medical practice of the day for bumps and bruises. Undoubtedly it carries with it the picture of ceremony familiar to Jews, but at best can simply be understood as care and encouragement from the elders. James tells us the prayer of the faithful will restore the one who is sick and if he has committed sins, they will be forgiven. So, we ought to confess sins in a situation like that so others can pray for us.
Guess what isn’t there. A formula for how sins are forgiven in general. No, rather we have instructions for a particular set of circumstances. Are we honestly to believe that James, dealing with a particular situation, was setting up a formula for how sin was to be forgiven in contradiction to every other instance where we see forgiveness in the rest of Scripture?
As for the supposed power to forgive sins given to your priests directly from the Apostles… the statement is rife with pre-suppositions that must be dealt with. First, there is no apostolic succession involving your priests. Destroying the myth of the Apostolic papacy is another post for another time, but no serious historian actually believes Peter was the Bishop of Rome let alone started some sort of succession prior to his death. So, no, the “power” to forgive sins that Jesus supposedly gave your church is nothing more than an ability to bind and loose in the church in general (Matt 18:18-19). In other words, whatever the church acknowledges on Earth is acknowledged in Heaven. But the power to actually forgive is reserved for God alone (Mar 2:7, Luk 5:21). God forgives, we can count on it, and when we recognize it and preach it on Earth we can have every confidence it is already so in Heaven. Quite a different picture than relying on a priest to forgive, isn’t it?
7. “Catholicism is a cult.”Jesus Christ founded this Church more than 2,000 years ago, I would hardly call it a cult.
Actually I’m with you on this one. Roman Catholicism is a false religion, but not a cult. A cult has far more control over it’s adherents, and since your Jesuits can hardly get along with your Franciscans, which hardly acknowledge the other sects, I’d say that’s a good argument Catholicism isn’t a cult. I’d also say since your Popes contradict each other, even anathematizing each other, that you hardly have the uniformity often found in cults. So, congratulations, we agree.
As for the being founded over 2,000 years ago? Got some news for you, the first 3 centuries of Christianity looked nothing like your religion and we’re not even sure Rome had a bishop for some of that time. No, you’re religion is a product of Roman societal norms. A slow and gradual investment of (false) importance into the church in the city of Rome and its leaders. Hardly the near eastern religion that turned the world upside down (Act 17:6). Rather, the European religion that turned to the world and became upside down.
8. “Catholics aren’t Christians.”No, my Catholic friends, you don’t follow Christ’s teachings. There are a number of places I could go for this, but let’s examine the reasons we protestants broke away from the Catholic church to begin with. Did Christ teach that Scripture Alone (2Tim 3:16-17) reveals that salvation is in Christ Alone (Jhn 14:6), through Faith Alone (Rom 3;28), by Grace alone (Eph 2:8-9)… plus nothing(1Co 2:1-5)… for the Glory of God alone? Or did Christ teach that Scripture needs tradition and a magisterium in order for the church to act as a gateway to Christ AND Mary for salvation by religious acts, through ritual for the entrenchment of the Roman papal order?The word Christian is associated with anyone who follows Christ’s teachings, and since the Catholic Church does just that then we are to be called Christians. Not to mention Catholics were actually the first Christians.
9. “Catholics added books to the Holy Bible.”
This one is so hilarious it hurts. For 300 years there was no Bible, only random writings from the prophets like St.Peter etc, until the Catholic monks compiled and canonized what is now known today as the Holy Bible. (That is until the Protestant Reformation occurred, in which one man *Martin Luther* removed 7 books). Ouch.
1) “For 300 years there was no Bible.” Oh, so I guess all those church fathers were just lucky guessers then? How about all that manuscript evidence?
2) “Until Catholic Monks compiled and canonized what is known today as the Holy Bible.” Ok, my first question is if that’s true, then why do you need other authorities? If it’s your book, why turn to tradition? But it’s not your book, is it? And you all know that, don’t you? Monks didn’t exist for quite sometime after the first century and by the time they did, the Bible was prolific throughout the world.
3) “(That is until the Protestant Reformation occurred, in which one man *Martin Luther* removed 7 books). Ouch.” Good grief. The books he took out were added by the magisterium to find justification for doctrines that weren’t found in what everyone already knew to be the Scriptures. The books your people added? Gnostic heresies and Inter-testamental books known from the Apocrypha of which only a small number of the faithful ever acknowledged as being inspired by God. The thing that makes the Bible the Bible is that the faithful always recognized it as being divinely inspired. So when a book like the Shepherd of Hermes came along, not written by an apostle, contradicting what was already Scripture, and of dubious lineage, most Christians knew enough to reject it.
It makes me sick that, in order to keep power, a church claiming to be the one true church takes credit for the inspired Word of God. How dare you?
10. “Catholics believe you can pay your way into Heaven.”
We definitely do not. That is a huge misconception which occurred during the Protestant Reformation.
Well you got one part right, it did happen during the Protestant Reformation. Tell us, how did you guys build that Basilica in Rome? I’m sure donations just poured in because people thought you guys were just the bee’s knees, right? Had nothing to do with promises of heaven or coins in cups ringing and souls springing, did it? NAH!
My message to my Catholic friends is to repent. You cannot count on the teachings of Rome to save you eternally. You can only count on He who has overcome death and offered Himself up on your behalf… and only in Him ALONE. Repent, trust Christ, and leave this wretched life behind.
Yeah, we know that married protty clergy, married teachers, married coaches, etc.are never on the sexual offender list.There is no such thing as a potential sexual offender list but you, of course, thought to throw that in when discussing Catholic clergy....OATHETIC
Your post was giving your opinion on Catholic teachings and they ha NOTHING to do with reality. You get to interpret the bible as you see it, but if you want an accurate and approved interpretation, sit down with a priest and talk to him....he will set you straight, and his teachings won't come anywhere near what you posted...
They are not the oldest period.
What Church is older than the Roman Catholic Church then?
Christ didn’t give the Pope the power to make stuff up and demand it be considered canon.
Christ did give power to the Church members from the lowest to the highest to confront and correct sin within its ranks so that loosed on earth it would not also be loosed in heaven, but bound on earth the contagion would not reach heaven.
What do you mean has nothing to do with reality? What point was incorrect? We’ll go through each one point by point if you want. BTW for what it is worth, I first learned that Jesus had brothers and sisters in a Bible study class taught by a Catholic priest in a Catholic church. And when we were going through the passages in the gospels mentioning Jesus’s brothers and sisters, the priest did not attempt to put any spin on it-—like oh, that was a typo, they meant say cousins-—or here’s another yarn you sometimes hear: oh, they were Joseph’s children from a prior marriage.
None...but post 95 indicated that the evangelical, teaching a Catholic school was the oldest.
sure He did Christ did give power to the Church members from the lowest to the highest to confront and correct sin within its ranks so that loosed on earth it would not also be loosed in heaven, but bound on earth the contagion would not reach heaven.
That is the strangest misinterpretation of the power to bind and loose that I have ever seen...
Lots of people just dismiss children instead of hearing what they say, particularly when they complain.
And that catholic priests assertions will be on par with the emphatic ‘truths’ of Mormonism’s priests, too.
Well, in order to bind or loose you need something to bind or loose.
The example is given in Matthew of sin by way of explanation. Basically if someone does something that is wrong, fellow believers are supposed to confront them. If they don’t listen you by steps take it before the larger community until either any misunderstanding is dealt with, they repent and stop, or they leave.
The Amish do this but I think pretty much everyone else “minds their own business” in American churches. Well, the Baptists sometimes. Anyway, we are seriously falling down on the job here, Catholics and Protestants alike.
All you did was say that Papal infallibility is explained by text in Matthew offered to a general audience about what we bind on earth will be bound in heaven and what we loose on earth is loosed in heaven, helpfully Matthew spells it out too about sin. Please explain your thinking with any other backup verses you need.
Matthew 16:19 mentions loosening and binding, Matthew 18:15-18 goes further with it.
Damned ol' opinions!
Then let's have Catholic FACTS to put them to rest!
As regards the oft-quoted Mt. 16:18
• Augustine, sermon:
"Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter's confession. What is Peter's confession? 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' There's the rock for you, there's the foundation, there's where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer. — John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine , © 1993 New City Press, Sermons, Vol III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327
Upon this rock, said the Lord, I will build my Church. Upon this confession, upon this that you said, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God,' I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not conquer her (Mt. 16:18). — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 236A.3, p. 48.
• Augustine, sermon:
For petra (rock) is not derived from Peter, but Peter from petra; just as Christ is not called so from the Christian, but the Christian from Christ. For on this very account the Lord said, 'On this rock will I build my Church,' because Peter had said, 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.' On this rock, therefore, He said, which thou hast confessed, I will build my Church. For the Rock (Petra) was Christ; and on this foundation was Peter himself built. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Christ Jesus. The Church, therefore, which is founded in Christ received from Him the keys of the kingdom of heaven in the person of Peter, that is to say, the power of binding and loosing sins. For what the Church is essentially in Christ, such representatively is Peter in the rock (petra); and in this representation Christ is to be understood as the Rock, Peter as the Church. — Augustine Tractate CXXIV; Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: First Series, Volume VII Tractate CXXIV (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf107.iii.cxxv.html)
• Augustine, sermon:
And Peter, one speaking for the rest of them, one for all, said, You are the Christ, the Son of the living God (Mt 16:15-16)...And I tell you: you are Peter; because I am the rock, you are Rocky, Peter-I mean, rock doesn't come from Rocky, but Rocky from rock, just as Christ doesn't come from Christian, but Christian from Christ; and upon this rock I will build my Church (Mt 16:17-18); not upon Peter, or Rocky, which is what you are, but upon the rock which you have confessed. I will build my Church though; I will build you, because in this answer of yours you represent the Church. — John Rotelle, O.S.A. Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 270.2, p. 289
• Augustine, sermon:
Peter had already said to him, 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.' He had already heard, 'Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you, that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not conquer her' (Mt 16:16-18)...Christ himself was the rock, while Peter, Rocky, was only named from the rock. That's why the rock rose again, to make Peter solid and strong; because Peter would have perished, if the rock hadn't lived. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City, 1993) Sermons, Volume III/7, Sermon 244.1, p. 95
• Augustine, sermon:
...because on this rock, he said, I will build my Church, and the gates of the underworld shall not overcome it (Mt. 16:18). Now the rock was Christ (1 Cor. 10:4). Was it Paul that was crucified for you? Hold on to these texts, love these texts, repeat them in a fraternal and peaceful manner. — John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1995), Sermons, Volume III/10, Sermon 358.5, p. 193
• Augustine, Psalm LXI:
Let us call to mind the Gospel: 'Upon this Rock I will build My Church.' Therefore She crieth from the ends of the earth, whom He hath willed to build upon a Rock. But in order that the Church might be builded upon the Rock, who was made the Rock? Hear Paul saying: 'But the Rock was Christ.' On Him therefore builded we have been. — Philip Schaff, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1956), Volume VIII, Saint Augustin, Exposition on the Book of Psalms, Psalm LXI.3, p. 249. (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf108.ii.LXI.html)
• Augustine, in “Retractions,”
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: 'On him as on a rock the Church was built.'...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: 'Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,' that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: 'Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,' and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received 'the keys of the kingdom of heaven.' For, 'Thou art Peter' and not 'Thou art the rock' was said to him. But 'the rock was Christ,' in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable. — The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1:.
Is it time for terycarl's abominable list of wonderful Popes again?
Remember who typed that stuff:
1. Do you DISAGREE that there was massive SIN at the highest levels of the Roman hierarchy?
2. Do you DISAGREE that LUTHER addressed that sin?
3. Do you DISAGREE that Rome made CHANGES after the 95 items were nailed to one of it's church's door?
One would think that the NT, after the gospels, would have LOTS of examples...
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