Posted on 07/01/2015 7:13:05 AM PDT by RnMomof7
Recently there has been a surge in prominent Evangelicals calling for unity with Roman Catholicism. In one sense there seems to be strong foundational similarities that would justify these calls to unity. Catholics are baptized in the name of the Trinity. God’s revealed word in the Bible -- setting aside their addition of the Apocryphal books, for argument’s sake -- is foundational to their worldview. Catholics love Christ and believe that he died on the cross and rose again to provide grace for sinners.
Obviously there are theological differences associated with the specific teachings of each one of these perceived similarities, and I do not want to minimize the importance of these differences. But for argument‘s sake, at least on the surface, there is some common ground.
There is also a strong agreement in ethical standards. Both Roman Catholics and Evangelicals ground morality on God’s holy nature as revealed in the law of God. This means that on the hot button moral issues of the day; the murder of the unborn, human sexuality, the sanctity of marriage there is solidarity between Roman Catholic and Evangelical ethics because they are coming from the same source. Again, this seems to justify a call to some sense of unity.
Are these good enough reasons to publically stump for visible unity with Roman Catholics? That question is beyond the scope of this post. But there is a more fundamental question that must be answered first. That question serves as the dividing line between followers of Christ and the world, which separates biblical Christianity from every other worldview; does Rome possess and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ?
The author of the book of Hebrews in chapter 10 contrasts the gospel with that which is but a shadow of the gospel. He argues:
"And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified." -- Heb 10:11–14
The argument being presented here makes it clear that Christ’s singular sacrifice, his death on the cross, perfects those for whom it is made for. This is the gospel. It is contrasted with the shadow of the gospel in which sacrifices were repeatedly made year after year because though they symbolized the atoning and perfecting sacrifice of Christ, they never themselves perfected those for whom they were made. The gospel of Jesus Christ perfects and any other religious strategies cannot.
This principle is directly applicable to the question of Roman Catholicism and the gospel of God. Roman Catholic worship centers on the mass. The mass is a series of liturgical practices that culminates in the Eucharist which according to paragraph 1068 of the Catholic of the Catholic Church (hereafter CCC) is a divine sacrifice. Paragraph 1367 of CCC calls the Eucharist a “truly propitiatory” sacrifice. This sacrifice is performed repeatedly in the life of a Catholic.
The reason the Eucharist is performed repeatedly is because even though it is claimed to be a propitiatory sacrifice that can make reparation for sins (CCC, 1414), it is a sacrifice that never perfects anyone. According to the Catholic message grace is something that you get from God by performing certain acts. First, God gives you the grace for faith in Jesus (CCC, 2000). Second, when you are baptized God graciously erases the sin of Adam from your record (CCC 1257). From that point on you get more grace by doing things like participating in the sacraments, including the Eucharist. The problem is that when you commit sins, you lose some of the grace you have gained and now need more lest your grace be found wanting at final judgment. This forces the Catholic into a position where they need to return day after day, week after week, and year after year to a priest who serves to repeatedly re-present the same sacrifice which never perfects those for whom it is made, since it only offers grace to cover some sin.
This is not the gospel.
Roman Catholics need the gospel for the same reason we all need it. We are all sinners with such a messed up and low view of how holy holiness really is that we think somehow through our own efforts we can attain it. If we just had enough time and willpower we could somehow have our good deeds outweigh our bad, and this will please God just enough for me to be acceptable to him. This is a satanic lie. A satanic lie that to some degree or another we have all bought into at some point in our life.
But the truth is glorious. God is good and God is holy. He is more good and more holy than we can possibly imagine. God is so good and so holy that anything less than absolute perfection is unacceptable in his presence. It is because of God’s awesome goodness and awesome holiness that in his wisdom he has offered us grace, through faith in Christ. A good and holy sacrifice that absolutely without question completely perfects everyone for whom it is made.
We Catholics know about the “Good Thief,” right? He was saved without Bible, without Baptism, and without an explicit declaration that he was accepting Jesus as his personal Lord and Savior. He just said “Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom.” We hardly know what he “believed” by that, but he was saved by grace.
We know about the babies killed in Bethlehem because of Herod’s “odium Christi”? Right? They had no baptism, no Bible, and had not even attained the age of reason, but they are considered saints in heaven (”the Holy Innocents.”)
We will respectfully bury stillborns and even miscarried babies in a Catholic Funeral which simply commits them to the mercy of God.
But the point is that God saves. Jesus: it’s His name!
Amen. His name as One is I AM. Is there anything the list needs to be completed?
Is there anything missing on this list, that you notice should be on the list?
Yes!
Canon 752: “While the assent of faith is not required, a religious submission of intellect and will is to be given to any doctrine which either the Supreme Pontiff or the College of Bishops, exercising their authentic Magisterium, declare upon a matter of faith or morals, even though they do not intend to proclaim that doctrine by definitive act. Christ's faithful are therefore to ensure that they avoid whatever does not accord with that doctrine.”
Canon 753: “While not infallible in their teaching, [Catholic bishops] are the authentic instructors and teachers of the faith for Christ's faithful entrusted to their care. The faithful are bound to adhere, with a religious submission of mind, to this authentic Magisterium of their Bishops.”
Do you guys have anything you believe should be on the definitive list?
In the interest of being thorough and fair, are there any items which you guys/gals would see need to be added to the list to complete it?
The Thief on the Cross is a special case to most who read the scriptures, so lets not use a possible exception to prove the rule, okay?
Have anything you want to add?
Any true Scriptural list showing "how we are saved" must be understood to add up to this one point: being incorporated into Christ.
How Scripture proclaims we are saved:
By believing in Jesus Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)
By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)
By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)
By eating His flesh and drinking His blood (Jn 6)
By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)
By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)
By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)
By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)
By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)
By His blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)
By His righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)
By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)
By childbearing (1 Tim 2:15)
By our words (Matt 12:37)
By compassion toward the needy (John 10:25-37; Matthew 25:31-46)
By enduring to the end (Matt.24:13)
This is all Scripture, and...
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, and for instruction in righteousness." 2 Timothy 3:16
If you want to find one word which comprises all of these items, and call that word "faith," that's fine: not a dead faith, as St. James says, but a 'living' one.
Which is to say, being incorporated into Christ. That's what Paul says in Galatians 3:23-29. Faith: Baptized in Christ - "immersed" in Christ - clothed with Christ - one in Christ - "Heirs according to the promise."
So, do you want to add to or subtract from the list?
The scriptures you post from I wouldn’t even guess what website, are not relevant tot he list. One example is the Romans 2 reference you posted. Look in context and for what focus Paul wrote that passage and it is immediately obvious the verses are not focused upon the Gospel for Salvation. Please, let’s be honest and not try to blur this serious focus into absurdity.
“Is there any other item which should be on the list of things that must be accomplished fro a Catholic to obtain Salvation?”
Ever try that with a Protestant? I have. First, they tell you all you need is faith in Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Then when you press them they might admit that the sinner must be contrite and repent of his sins. Then when you press them a little more they might admit that a firm choice amendment of life is probably in there too. Then if you ask them if they must believe Jesus is divine, that Protestant might not know what to say because the obvious answer is yes, but many Protestants are not so sure about Jesus’ divinity or if that is necessarily a part of “Lord” for Jesus. Then if you ask the Protestant is someone can lose faith in Christ and be saved, he stammers and starts looking for a quick exit. Usually they evade the question by insisting that someone who was “really saved” would never lose faith or commit a serious sin. When you point out examples of people who have done such things the Protestant will insist those people must not have really been saved in the first place.
My answer for the same question is exactly what Mary said at Cana: “Do whatever He tells you.”
If that is not enough for you, then you have much to learn about God and yourself.
“You Catholics claim to know your religion better than any Protestants on FR, so please, make this list complete so we readers don’t miss anything vital, essential, absolutely required, for salvation as a Catholic.”
Do whatever He tells you. That’s the whole list.
Nope...We know exactly what he believed...
“Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
Rom_10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
So you have nothing to add, just a neediness of assaulting Protestants? If there is something you would like to add to the gracious list Petrosius offered, please do so. There will be plenty of time to massage egos and spit at people on other threads in other discussions, where you can fulfill your needs.
-— My answer for the same question is exactly what Mary said at Cana: “Do whatever He tells you.” -—
Great post. The matter of salvation cannot be reduced to a single Bible verse.
“If you love me, keep my commandments.” —Jesus
We are not trying to limit to a single or even a few Bible verses. That would not be fair. Is there something from the Magesterium or Catholic Traditions that you feel should be listed as essential to Salvation from a Catholic perspective?
“Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved - and your household” - Acts 16:31
I am not going to argue with you, since that will not build up the Body of Christ either.
To the list you refer and also in the interests of completeness: full assent to all dogmatic Church teachings is also required for salvation.
This doesn’t mean every Catholic must understand them completely, at the level of a scholar; no level of “understanding” is required really (although of course encouraged)
Nor does it mean that if one is innocently ignorant of one, one is guilty of rejecting it. It does not mean that.
It simply means once one is educated about a dogmatic teaching, one cannot disagree with it. To know a teaching is dogmatic, and understand the teaching is dogmatic (which means it’s required) and to reject it anyway is a mortal sin.
So I guess that falls in line with Petrosius’ requirement # 3. I just thought it deserved its own mention, again for completeness.
Asking to have a list of the things a person has learned from Catholicism are necessary for Salvation according to Catholic faith is not arguing and if it gets someone saved, is it building up the body or not?
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