Why I am not Protestant (Non-Denominational, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc)

catholic365.com ^ | 6/17/2015 | By Shaila D Touchton

[2ndDivisionVet]

She’s a good gal and posts a lot of pro-life stuff, so I’m not trying to attack her, but these anti-protestant threads seem to get more numerous all the time.

[ronnietherocket3]

No, I’m asking you to focus upon the important point of being born from above. We can assume you are already born of water from your mother’s womb. Unless you are a computer program designed to formulate questions, only questions.

Please state the basis of the assumption. However, when one is born, there is a Father and a Mother. The Holy Spirit is male and so takes the role of father. The leaves open the question of who is the mother here. Miriam (Hebrew for Mary) translates as, amongst other things, water.

[unlearner]

The Biblical record differs from your claims:

The qualifications of apostleship are listed in scripture. These include being a witness of the resurrection, being personally taught by Christ, and having confirming signs of apostleship.

2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

1 Corinthians 9:1
Am I not an apostle? Am I not free? Have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are you not my work in the Lord?

Paul opposed Peter because Peter was wrong. This is not an opinion. It is scripture.

Galatians 2:11
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;

Paul said Peter and the other apostles added nothing to him. Further, Paul claimed to be an apostle to the Gentiles to same degree Peter was to the Jewish believers.

Romans 11:13
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry.

Galatians 2:8
for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles

Galatians 2:6
But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me.

Peter did not specify that his authority would pass to someone he mentored but rather wrote his doctrine and historical record so they would remain after his departure (i.e. death).

2 Peter 1:15
Moreover I will be careful to ensure that you always have a reminder of these things after my decease.

Apostolic authority was necessarily embodied in people as the early church began, but that authority was preserved for the church in the form of writings by the apostles. We have all of the apostolic authority we need in scripture.

Revelation praises the testing of apostolic claims. Even in the early church their were many such false claims. When put to the test, many were found to be liars.

Revelation 2:2
I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars.

Apostolic succession is false. It does not meet the requirements of apostleship. The Pope is NOT a witness to the resurrection of Christ. Those apostles who penned the New Testament were. Their record is one of eye witness testimony. This is an essential element of the gospel according to 1 Corinthians 15.

2 Corinthians 11:13
For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:1-5
Moreover, brethren, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received and in which you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you—unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve.

For many years the Catholic church opposed the people having scripture in their own language. This so-called “church” murdered those who dared to give people scriptures they could read for themselves. Having failed to prevent people from having the Bible, this so-called “church” has claimed to have more authority than the Bible, and that the Bible cannot be understood without the “church” to explain it.

I do not need to try to make sense of the words of a foreign-language speaking idolatrous apostle impersonator who speaks from both sides of his mouth, wears long robes and loves being called Rabbi and Father, when I can read the words of Peter, John, and Paul for myself. The Bible lets me hear from the apostles. It has all of the apostolic authority we need.

[Mom MD]

And you wonder why we cry blasphemy? You would elevate Mary to the level of the Spirit?

God is a Trinity, not a Trinity + Mary. Mary was blessed to carry Christ in her womb, but others have been blessed by God as well. Mary is a human, no different than you or me, needing a Savior just as you and I do. She has no special influence with God. Get over it.

[Salvation]

What is wrong with me posting Scripture?

You are posting it. Is it OK for Protestants/non-Catholics to post Scripture, but not Catholics?

Not making sense to me.

[MHGinTN]

The scriptures reveal themselves for you. Look at the passage in John 3. Follow the reasoning and see where the born of water AND born from above fit into the exhanges. Nicodemus even tried to not look at the implications of the spiritual meaning by referring to entering again into his mother and being born from her again. Are you familiar witht he amniotic fluid which gushes forth when birth is imminent? Jesus didn’t let Nicodemus stay at the carnal mind level of being birthed from the water in the mother. He took him immediately to the spiritual. I’m asking you if you can discern when the spiritual birthing happens. If it happens to you, you will know it. Do I need to post th epassage from John 3 with annotation?

[ronnietherocket3]

Apostolic succession is false. It does not meet the requirements of apostleship.

Apostolic Succession is not a claim that the bishops are new Apostles.

[MHGinTN]

BTW, have you not read in the Bible that we are in His family by the Spirit of ADOPTION? It really would serve you well to read your Douay Rheims more often, with a system for doing so.

[Salvation]

I’m sorry. That was not meant for you.

[ronnietherocket3]

You would elevate Mary to the level of the Spirit?

Where did I elevate Mary to the level of the Holy Spirit?

Mary was blessed to carry Christ in her womb,

So Mary was already the maternal counterpart to the Holy Spirit once, but saying it happens again in baptism is blasphemy.

Mary is a human, no different than you or me,

I find this statement odd coming from people who believe that the Bible Alone has authority. There appears to be a tendency to put the Apostles on a pedestal amongst humans because the Holy Spirit wrote the Word of God through them, yet Mary is not to be elevated when the Word of God was brought into the world through her.

[Steelfish]

This explanation would be laughed off by entry level theologians.

[Salvation]

What is wrong with me posting Scripture?

You are posting it. Is it OK for Protestants/non-Catholics to post Scripture, but not Catholics?

Not making sense to me.

[MHGinTN]

Yes, from the discussions at FR I can see that the catholic church is full of such sad creatures. Have you been through their seminary?

[Mom MD]

I do not put the apostles on pedestals.
all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God - you guys are the ones that put saints, apostles, popes, church fathers, and anyone else you can think of on a pedestal

And Mary is not the maternal counterpart of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit has no human counterpart. God is God and creatures are creatures. God can and does use humans to accomplish His will, but we are instruments, not counterparts or in any other way equal to God.

[ronnietherocket3]

And Mary is not the maternal counterpart of the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 1, Jesus is described as a Child of the Holy Spirit. Mary is the Mother, the Holy Spirit is the Father. Unless there is some weird part of the Bible where children are conceived with only one parent, children must have a mother and a father. The only possible exception to this I know of is Jesus' birth from the father before all ages.

[MHGinTN]

Hey old cow, does this tripe sound familiar?

[Mom MD]

Mary is the mother only of Jesus human body. She is not the mother of His divine side. There is a big difference.

[ronnietherocket3]

The scriptures reveal themselves for you. Look at the passage in John 3. Follow the reasoning and see where the born of water AND born from above fit into the exhanges. Nicodemus even tried to not look at the implications of the spiritual meaning by referring to entering again into his mother and being born from her again. Are you familiar witht he amniotic fluid which gushes forth when birth is imminent? Jesus didn’t let Nicodemus stay at the carnal mind level of being birthed from the water in the mother. He took him immediately to the spiritual. I’m asking you if you can discern when the spiritual birthing happens. If it happens to you, you will know it. Do I need to post th epassage from John 3 with annotation?

Genesis 1:2: And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

[daniel1212]

Ephesians 5:6-7 "The Scribes and Pharisees have sat on the chair of Moses. ALL things, therefore, that they command you, observe and do. But do not act according to their works; for they talk but do nothing.” Matthew 23:2-3. This is a command to be obedient regardless of individual feelings, and it comes from Jesus Christ.

Congratulations, besides the plethora of other poor pro-papal polemics in this prolix pasted propaganda, you have just effectively nuked the NT church.

For to be consistent with your interpretation of this text as requiring obedience regardless of individual feelings, then all 1st century souls should have submitted to the judgment of those who sat in the seat of Moses, as you require of souls to Rome. Which invalidates the NT church!

Yet the church actually began in dissent from those who sat in the seat of Moses over Israel, (Mt. 23:2) who were the historical instruments and stewards of Scripture, "because that unto them were committed the oracles of God," (Rm. 3:2) to whom pertaineth" the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises" (Rm. 9:4) of Divine guidance, presence and perpetuation as they believed, (Gn. 12:2,3; 17:4,7,8; Ex. 19:5; Lv. 10:11; Dt. 4:31; 17:8-13; Ps, 11:4,9; Is. 41:10, Ps. 89:33,34; Jer. 7:23)

And instead they followed an itinerant Preacher whom the magisterium rejected, and whom the Messiah reproved them Scripture as being supreme, (Mk. 7:2-16) and established His Truth claims upon scriptural substantiation in word and in power, as did the early church as it began upon this basis. (Mt. 22:23-45; Lk. 24:27,44; Jn. 5:36,39; Acts 2:14-35; 4:33; 5:12; 15:6-21;17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23; Rm. 15:19; 2Cor. 12:12, etc.)

[daniel1212]

Why I am not Protestant (Non-Denominational, Baptist, Pentecostal, etc)

Why I am not a Catholic

(Alexandrian:

Coptic Rite

Ethiopic Rite

Antiochian:

Maronite Rite

(West) Syrian Rite

Malankara Rite

Armenian Rite:

Armenian Rite

Chaldean or East Syrian:

Chaldean Rite

Syro-Malabar Rite

Byzantine Rite (Constantinopolitan):

Byzantine

Latin (Western) liturgical rites:

Roman Rite

Pre-Tridentine Mass (the various pre-1570 forms)

Tridentine Mass

Mass of Paul VI (

Anglican Use

Ambrosian Rite

Rite of Braga

Mozarabic Rite

Catholic Order Rites (generally defunct):

Benedictine Rite

Carmelite Rite

Carthusian Rite

Cistercian Rite

Dominican Rite

Franciscan Rite

Friars Minor Capuchin Rite

Premonstratensian Rite

Servite Rite

Catholic autonomous particular Churches:

Latin Church with Latin liturgical traditions

Eastern Catholic Churches

Alexandrian liturgical tradition:

Coptic Catholic Church

Ethiopian Catholic Church

Eritrean Catholic Church

Antiochian liturgical tradition:

Maronite Church

Syrian Catholic Church

Syro-Malankara Catholic Church

Armenian liturgical tradition:

Armenian Catholic Church

Chaldean or East Syrian liturgical tradition:

Chaldean Catholic Church

Syro-Malabar Catholic Church

Byzantine liturgical tradition:

Albanian Byzantine Catholic Church

Belarusian Greek Catholic Church

Bulgarian Greek Catholic Church

Byzantine Church of Croatia, Serbia and Montenegro

Greek Byzantine Catholic Church

Hungarian Greek Catholic Church

Italo-Albanian Catholic Church

Macedonian Greek Catholic Church

Melkite Greek Catholic Church

Romanian Church United with Rome, Greek-Catholic

Russian Greek Catholic Church

Ruthenian Catholic Church

Slovak Greek Catholic Church

Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church)

Partial list of contrasts between the New Testament church and Roman Catholicism.
Leadership	NT church	Commentary (a short summary, as by God's grace, defenders of Rome have been refuted time and time again into silence or there recourse to spitwads, as can be shown).
	• No apostles elected by voting. • No successors after Judas, with the only continuously perpetuated pastoral office by way of ordination being that of presbuteros/episkopos. • Peter as as non-assertive street-level leader among the 11, with no succession or preparation for one. • No corporate view of Peter as their first of supreme infallible popes in Rome. • Nowhere in the NT, interpretive of Mt. 16:18, is Peter called or described as the Rock upon which the church was built. • No leadership claiming/possessing ensured perpetual infallibility. • No leadership with unique sacrificial function, offering food as sacrifice. • No leadership distinctively titled “hiereus” (priests): only presbuteros/ episkopos (same office: Titus 1:5-7). • No leadership with unique sacrificial function, offering food as sacrifice. • The primary function of pastors was that of prayer and preaching the word of God. • No required celibacy for leadership. Most were married.	• There were no apostolic successors after Judas, which was (in order to maintain foundational number of apostles (cf. Rv. 21:14) and which was by the non-political Scriptural means of casting lots. (cf. Prov. 16:33) Peter was the initial, non-assertive street-level leader among the 11, once even listed after James (who provided the conclusive judgment in Acts 15) in Gal. 2 as one of 3 present who appeared to be pillars. To whom Rome's ensured perpetual formulaic infallibility is nowhere promised, and in contrast holy (he was) Peter was the only apostle directly publicly rebuked. • No succession for Peter or preparation for one is seen in the NT, an incongruous conspicuous omission for a cardinal doctrine, while ordination of leaders is described and taught. For the only continuously perpetuated pastoral office (unless deacons are included) by way of formal ordination was that of presbuteros (senior/elder) or episkopos (superintendent/overseer), both of which refer to those in the same office. (Titus 1:5-7) • Nowhere is the church described as looking to Peter as the first of a line of supreme infallible heads in Rome, nor told to even in any of the church epistles or in the Lord's commendations and criticisms of the 7 churches of Asia. • Nowhere interpretive of Mt. 16:18 is Peter called or described as the Rock upon which the church was built. Instead, that the LORD Jesus is the Rock (“petra”) or "stone" (“lithos,” and which denotes a large rock in Mk. 16:4) upon which the church is built is one of the most abundantly confirmed doctrines in the Bible (petra: Rm. 9:33; 1Cor. 10:4; 1Pet. 2:8; cf. Lk. 6:48; 1Cor. 3:11; lithos: Mat. 21:42; Mk.12:10-11; Lk. 20:17-18; Act. 4:11; Rm. 9:33; Eph. 2:20; cf. Dt. 32:4, Is. 28:16) including by Peter himself. (1Pt. 2:4-8) • Nowhere is leadership/magisterial office promised ensured perpetual infallibility. RCs extrapolate support for this out of promises of God's presence and preservation, but which Israel has as well. They also hold that an infallible magisterium is essential to know what is of God (writing and men) and their meaning, but which was never required before, and is contrary to how the church began. • Nowhere is leadership distinctively titled “hiereus” (priests), which distinctive title is only used for Jewish and pagan priests. Catholics try to defend the use of priests by relying on an <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etymological_fallacy ">etymological fallacy </a>, since "priest," from old English "preost," etymologically is derived from "presbyteros," but which is not what the latter means. Instead the use of the title priests was a latter development due to imposed functional equivalence, supposing NT presbyteros engaged in a unique sacrificial ministry as a primary function, which they did not. • Nowhere is leadership even shown distributing food as part of their specific ordained function, (Acts 6:3,4) and is nowhere is the Lords' Supper shown to be led by priests conducting it, let alone offering it as a sacrifice for sins to be consumed to obtain eternal life. The command to “do this in memory of Me” is nowhere shown to be specifically and uniquely given to leadership, let alone a class titled “priests.” • The primary function of pastors was that of prayer and preaching the word of God, (Acts 6:3,4) which is said to "nourish" the souls of believers, and believing it is how the lost obtain life in themselves. (1 Timothy 4:6; Psalms 19:7;Acts 15:7-9) • Nowhere is celibacy a requirement for leadership, as in contrast marriage was the norm for pastors, include most of the apostles. Paul and Barnabas under a vow to stay single. (1Cor. 9:4; 1Tim. 3:1-7)
The Lord's Supper	• The Lord's Supper is ordained as an ordinance by which that believers remember the Lord's death and show fellowship with Christ by a commemorative shared meal. • Nowhere is spiritual life obtaining by literally eating anything physical. Instead, spiritual life is obtained by hearing and believing the gospel of grace.	• Nowhere, interpretive of of the gospels, is the Lord's Supper itself described as offering for sin, or to be consumed in order to obtain essential spiritual life. Instead is only described in one epistle and in which it is analogous to pagans having fellowship with their gods, not by consuming their flesh, but by the communal meal done in dedication to the object of worship. By which believers remember the Lord's death and fellowship with Christ by a commemorative communal meal, sharing food in recognition of each other being part of the body of Christ which He purchased with His own sinless shed blood. Only the metaphorical See here. By God's grace. • Nowhere is spiritual life obtaining by literally eating anything physical, as per transubstantiation. Spiritual life is obtained by hearing and believing the gospel of grace, which is said to "nourish" the souls of believers and build them up (1 Timothy 4:6; Acts 20:32)
Baptism	• Baptism is ordained by which souls confess the Lord Jesus, identifying with Him in His death by full immersion. • It is the faith behind baptism that purifies the heart, not the act itself effecting it. • Nowhere are any infants manifestly described as being baptized.	• Souls confess and identify with the Lord Jesus in baptism by full immersion, as that alone corresponds to burial (as a liquid grave) and is what the Greek word means. (Acts 8:38; Rm. 6:1ff) • It is the faith behind baptism that purifies the heart, as Peter preached and described, (Acts 10:43; 15:7-9) not the act itself effecting it. As baptism requires and evidences faith, so it is promised that those who will repent and baptized will be saved, just as whosoever shall call upon the Lord, who believe in their heart and confess with their mouth faith in the gospel are promised salvation. (Rm. 10:9-13) • Nowhere are any infants manifestly described as being baptized, the stipulated requirements for which are repentance and wholehearted faith. (Acts 2:38; 8:36,37) .
Gospel and soteriology	• Preached the death, burial and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, the Son of God, and forgiveness of sins and regeneration by the Spirit of God by faith, which is counted for righteousness, but which is a faith that is (normally) confessed first in baptism.	• Believers are promised forgiveness of sins and regeneration by the Spirit of God by faith in the Lord Jesus who died for us and whom God raised up. As a result, their faith (a living faith, such as is confessed in baptism and following the Lord) is counted for righteousness, and the believer is washed, sanctified and justified on account of thew sinless and perfect Christ, not their own righteousness. (Rm. 3:10- 5:1; 1Cor. 6:11; Eph. 2:8,9; Titus 3:5) • The merit of works is excluded as the basis for justification, with “works of the law” usually being used as that is the epitome of salvation by merit. "If there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law." (Galatians 3:21) When Abraham believed God to do what he could not do then it was counted unto him for righteousness, though he had done works before that. Likewise we must believe God to do what we cannot not do, that is, to justify ourselves by becoming good enough to be with God, which God does by imputation of righteousness by faith in the Jesus Christ the righteous. • In contrast, Catholicism teaches that the one is formally justified by his own holiness, first effected by the act of baptism, leaving the subject holy enough to be with God. Thus Rome holds that most believers must spend an indeterminate postmortem time suffering “purifying torments” in mythical “Purgatory” until the subject becomes good enough, free of character defects, to be with God (and atone for sins). • Works/holiness do have a justificatory effect, that of justifying one as being a believer, and fit to be rewarded under grace, with God rewarded faith in recognition of its works, (Mt. 25:31-40; Heb. 6:9,10; 10:35; Rv. 3:4) even though in conversion, man is both enabled and motivated (Jn. 6:44; 16:8-11; 12:32; Acts 11:18; 16:14; Eph. 2:8,9) to do what he otherwise could not and would not do, and then enables and motivates the believer to live for God. (Phil. 2:13; 1Co. 11:32) • However, believers can choose to sin, and are warned against having an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God, falling from grace, drawing back into perdition, making Christ of no effect/profit, falling from grace. (Heb. 3:12; 10:38; Gal. 5:1-4) Thus God works to chasten wayward souls to repentance, lest they “be condemned with the rest of the world.” (1Co. 11:32
Afterlife	• All true believers go to be with the Lord at death or at His return, the latter being the next transformative effect believers look to. After which is the only suffering believers will realize, that being the loss of rewards.	• What Scripture teaches wherever it manifestly speaks about the next life, is that since believers are forgiven on account of Christ, on His merit, then all true believers presently are “accepted in the Beloved,” and made to sit together with Christ in the heavenly, (Eph. 1:6;2:6) and go to be with the Lord at death or at His return. it is always with the Lord. (Lk. 23:43 [cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7]; Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8 [“we”]; 1Cor. 15:51ff'; 1Thess. 4:17) Note in the latter case all believers were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17) though they were still undergoing growth in grace, as was Paul. (Phil. 3;2) And which is the next transformative event believers look to, that of being conformed to Christ. (2Cor. 5:2,3; 1Cor. 15; 1Jn. 3:2) • At/after which coming ( versus purgatory, which has souls suffering upon death) believers at the judgment seat of Christ (1Cor. 3:8ff; 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:31-46; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) will gain or lose rewards based on the quality of the material they used to build the church with, which loss is only (and momentary) suffering (along with the grievous displeasure of the Lord) believers will realize after leaving this world. Scripture also only reveals growth in grace and overcoming and prolonged suffering as being realized in this world, with its temptations and trials, (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) where alternatives to submitting to God can be made (suffering itself does not make one mature) and thus it was here that the Lord Himself was made “perfect,” (Heb. 2:10) as in being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)
Scripture	• Scripture is manifest as being the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God. • Scriptural substantiation in word and in power was the basis for the veracity of Truth claims. • Never supported or made laws that restricted personal reading of Scripture by laity	It is abundantly evidenced that the word of God/the Lord was normally written, even if sometimes subsequent to being spoken, and that as written, the written word of God became the transcendent supreme standard for obedience and testing and establishing truth claims as the wholly Divinely inspired and assured, Word of God. And which testifies (Lk. 24:27,44; Acts 17:2,11; 18:28; 28:23, etc.) to writings of God being recognized and established as being so (essentially due to their unique and enduring heavenly qualities and attestation), and thus they materially provide for a canon of Scripture (as well as for reason, the church, etc.) Scriptural substantiation in word and in power was the basis for Truth claims, not the premise of ensured papal/magisterial infallibility, which is nowhere seen or promised nor necessary to preserve faith. Never supported or made laws that restricted personal reading of Scripture by laity as per Rome, if available, sometimes even outlawing it when it was.
Oral tradition	• Oral “tradition” was that of orally preaching Scriptural Truths, as a Sola Scriptura preacher is to do, while it also included new revelation as well as wholly inspired preaching of the word of God. • Nowhere was the veracity of oral tradition based upon the premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility.	Oral “tradition” was that of orally preaching Scriptural Truths by the whole church,(Acts 8:4) as a Sola Scriptura preacher is to do, while it also included new revelation and Divinely revealed Truths as the wholly inspired preaching word of God (which is uniquely powerful: Heb. 4:12). neither of which Rome claims to do (she claims her oral tradition is inspired, but not the written promulgation of it). Nowhere was the veracity of oral tradition based upon the the novel and unScriptural premise of ensured perpetual magisterial infallibility as per Rome, but Scripture was the standard by which all was tested by. (Acts 17:11)
Prayer	• Prayer directly to God by the blood of Christ, who is the only heavenly intercessor between God and man. • Never prayed to any created beings in Heaven.	• Nowhere in all of Scripture, with its over 200 recorded prayers, did any believer pray to anyone else in Heaven by God, who alone is shown to be able to hear and personally respond multitudinous prayers to Heaven. The Lord's own instructions on prayer was to “Our Father who art in Heaven,” to whom the Spirit in believers cries out to, never “Our Mother.” • Communication between created beings always required both to be in the same realm, even if via a vision. Christ is taught as being the only and wholly sufficient and accessible heavenly intercessor between God and man. (1Tim. 2:5; Heb. 2:18 4:14-16)
Mary	• Mary simply presented as a holy devout vessel of God, used to provide the body God had prepared for His Divine Son, whom she owed her existence to. • No prayers were made to her, while she prayed directly to the Lord, nor are many other things taught of her that are said of the Mary of Catholicism.	• Mary presented as a holy vessel of God used to provide the body God had prepared, (Heb. 10:5) owing her very breath to the Son of God who was incarnated through her, (Jn. 1:1-3) and whom she was a mother to. Which Christ said all obedient believers were. • Scripture never records her as a women who never sinned, and or as a perpetual virgin despite being married (contrary to the normal description of marriage, as in leaving and sexually cleaving), nor as one who would be bodily assumed to Heaven and exalted (officially or with implicit sanction) as the Queen of Heaven, as an almost almighty demigoddess. • Scripture does not teach the Mary of Catholicism, to whom "Jesus owes His Precious Blood" to. Whose [Mary] merits we are saved by; who "had to suffer, as He did, all the consequences of sin;" whose power now "is all but unlimited," "surpassing in power all the angels and saints in Heaven," so much that she "seems to have the same power as God," that “even God himself, is subject to the Blessed Virgin” since her prayers and requests are as commands, and that "the Holy Spirit acts only by the Most Blessed Virgin, his Spouse," and that “sometimes salvation is quicker if we remember Mary's name then if we invoked the name of the Lord Jesus," and who (obviously) cannot "be honored to excess."
Worship	• Worship was to God alone, with such things as making supplication to other being in heaven being idolatry.	• Worship was to be to God alone in spirit and in Truth, (Jn. 4:24) with ascribing uniquely Divine attributes to created beings, including the ability to hear and personally respond to prayer in Heaven, and bowing down as before them (or their representative images) and making supplication to them, constituting idolatry, (Jer. 44; Acts 7:43) even if it was an instrument used by God. (Num. 21:9; 2Ki. 18:4)
Miscl.	• “Saints” denoted all believers. God was distinctive from that of the known God of pagans. • Did not rule over those without, nor use the sword of men for church purposes.	• The NT never called a separate class of believers “saints,” which term denoted all believers. • Never taught that the deity Muslims worship (who is not as an "unknown god") is the same as theirs. • Never used the sword of men to deal with its theological dissenters, as instead disfellowship and the spiritual power was their recourse, and relegated dealing with those without the church to being outside their realm. (1Cor. 5:4,5,11-13; 1Tim. 1:20)