Posted on 06/24/2015 7:01:15 PM PDT by ebb tide
(Turin) last Monday, 22 June Pope Francis appeared in the main church of the Vaudois, the day after his pilgrimage to the grave Shroud of Turin in the Piedmontese capital.
It was a scene that was recorded photographically. The Waldensian pastors handed Pope Francis their Bible that the Pope kissed before their eyes.
A "disturbing" image, says Chiesa e postconcilio . "What does the great catechism of St. Pius X, # 887. What should a Christian do if he is offered a Bible by a Protestant or an emissary of the Protestants? Answer: When a Christian of a is offered a bible by a Protestant or an envoy, he must reject it with disgust, because it is forbidden by the Church; when he accepts it, not noticing, then he must throw it immediately into the fire or deliver his pastor." As far as radio Spada thinks of the episode, what Pius X. here recommends Christians recommends, so too did St. John Bosco, as he stood against the Waldenses.
"Unchristian, Inhumane Behavior" of the Catholic Church?
Pope Francis has entered as the first Catholic Church leader, into a Waldensian Temple. Certainly it's an historic moment. The Catholic Church leader is quoted in his address to the Waldensian from the Scriptures and that - as expressly stated - in a "interconfessional version".
Francis apologized to the Waldenses for everything that was done to them by Catholics: "On the part of the Catholic Church, I ask you for forgiveness for the unchristian and even inhuman attitudes and actions, which we have done in history against you. In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, forgive us! "
"Pope Overcomes a Wall of Charges of Heresy"
The Moderator of the Waldensian Table, Pastor Eugenio Bernardini replied: "The Pope has overcome a wall that was built eight centuries ago when our church was accused and excommunicated by the Roman church of heresy." The pope did not argue.
The Waldensian movement originated as mendicants in 12th century Lyon from the teachings of the merchant Peter Valdes. They understood themselves in response to the civil power then exerted by the Roman Church. Today, they are commonly referred to as aligned to Calvinist Protestants. They practice a number of errors that have similarities with the Donatists. St. Augustine said of these heretics: "In many ways, the heretics are with me in some others, not; but because of these few points, where they separate from me, it does not help them in everything else to be with me." (In Psa. 54, no. 19, PL 36, 641).
Historically, it is also important that about half of the adherents were liberals and Freemasons in the 19th century who crossed over from the Catholic Church to the Waldenses. This fact and its liberal attitude meant that they had a lot of weight in spite of their small numbers in state-supporting circles of Turin.
Pius XI. against the "Panchristians"
In Mortalium Animos wrote the Blessed Pope Pius XI. 1928:
"These things and others that class of men who are known as pan-Christians proudly repeat and disseminate; and these men, so far from being quite few and scattered, have increased to the dimensions of an entire class, and have grouped themselves into widely spread societies, most of which are directed by non-Catholics, although they are imbued with varying doctrines concerning the things of faith. This undertaking is so actively promoted as in many places to win for itself the adhesion of a number of citizens, and it even takes possession of the minds of very many Catholics and allures them with the hope of bringing about such a union as would be agreeable to the desires of Holy Mother Church, who has indeed nothing more at heart than to recall her erring sons and to lead them back to her bosom. But in reality beneath these enticing words and blandishments lies hid a most grave error, by which the foundations of the Catholic faith are completely destroyed."
Don Bosco and his Persecution by the Waldensian
Don Bosco As Pope Francis in Turin attended a Waldensian Temple, it is good to remember St. John Bosco, who had done great things in this city. So great that Francis also paid a visit to the Centre of the Salesian Order, founded in the Valdocco in Turin by Don Bosco with the large church of Mary Help of Christians. The Saint lived from 1815 - 1888 and experienced at that time the Italian unification movement, which was to smash the Papal States in 1870.
The Kingdom of Sardinia-Piedmont, with its anticlerical-Masonic state doctrine prepared big trouble for the Piedmontese saint. . As the state persecution finally subsided, then entered these Waldenses who were placed at the service of the new kingdom. They unfurled lively propaganda activities in Turin, with attacking Don Bosco and sought to discredit him to the public. Finally, they called him confidently out to theological disputes. All Waldensian leaders of Turin appeared to dispute the Saints, however, were defeated. Finally, they offered the best known of their pastors, Jean Pierre Meille from Provençal Luzerna e San Jan in Piedmont.
The Dispute with the Famous Waldensian Pastor Meille
The debate in Valdocco took seven hours until it ended with a comic scene. Don Bosco had tried to reason with the history and with the Latin Scriptures. But Meille did not want to admit defeat, and finally said that the Latin Bible was not enough, one must consult the Greek text. Don Bosco stood up, walked to the bookcase, fetched a Greek Bible and put it to the Waldensian pastor out by saying, "Here, sir, the Greek text. You are welcome to refer to it, and you will find that it agrees completely with the Latin text." Meille had bluffed, so as not to have to admit defeat. He had no knowledge of Greek, which is why looked at the book upside down and leafed through it. When Don Bosco turned it right side up, he was embarrassed, turned crimson, jumped up and stormed out of the hall. The dispute was over.
Then they changed their approach. One Sunday in August 1853, two men came and went to the Saint, one of them was a Waldensian pastor, as it turned out later. They flattered Don Bosco, and finally offered him a considerable sum of money, with the announcement that he would get a lot more of it, if instead of writing books about religion, he would turn to history of science, because his contributions could be so valuable. Don Bosco rejected indignantly, and the two men swore at him and finally even threatened, "If you leave the house, are you are sure to return?"
"Catholic Priests are for the Glory of God and the Good of Souls and Ready to Die"
John Bosco answered them: "I see that you do not seem to know who I am. I am a Catholic priest and Catholic priests are for the glory of God and ready to die for the good of the souls entrusted to them." The two men wanted to attack the Saint physically. Don Bosco took a chair and said, "If I wanted to use violence, I would have the power to make you feel this provocation. The power of the priest is but in patience and forgiveness. So I think that it is time to end this conversation." At that moment the door opened and Giuseppe Buzzetti, a loyal employee of Don Bosco stood in the doorway. The Saint said quietly to him, "Accompany these men to Confession!"
The Waldensians then attacked with other means of persuasion. One evening Don Bosco was called to a patient to take his confession. In the house he found a group of men who flattered him and urged to drink with them a glass of wine. Don Bosco remarked, however, that his glass was filled from another bottle, than the glasses of the men present. When he refused, two of the men were holding him, while the other wanted to for the wine violently. He dealt with predicament in a ruse: "If you believe it is necessarily, then I drink, but let me free, otherwise the wine will only spill". When they released him, he jumped quickly to the door, flung it open and called in the four young men, who had accompanied him to protect him. The men gave up their project in he face of the changing situation. Don Bosco asked a friend to inquire about the background of this attack. It turned out that the men in the house had been paid to poison the saint.
Assassinations against Don Bosco
Called to a dying person, a group of armed men with truncheons lurked for the saint, who would kill Don Bosco. Since the attackers had turned off the light, the Saint could initially protect himself with a table. Alarmed by the noise, his four faithful companions came to his aid, so that he escaped from the house unharmed.
Protestants now wanted facts: On a January afternoon in 1854 Don Bosco got a visit from two men. They called on him to stop the publication of Catholic writings or else we'll fix you. As the threats did not impress the Saint, the men said to him: "Either you do it or you're dead." They pulled guns and held them on the Saint's breast. "Then shoot!" Dom Bosco hurled against them with a strong voice. Giovanni Cagliero, a confidant of the Saint, had not trusted the men and therefore followed them on his own initiative to Dom Bosco's room. He now rushed with loud shouts of "Help" into the room, which surprised the two attackers, who wanted to intimidate the Saint that they quickly hid the guns and ran out of the room.
Despite the many attacks on his life, the saint never wore weapons and never used violence. He gave himself completely to Providence, which protected him. This included "Grey", a powerful large dog who repeatedly freed the holy Don Bosco from dangerous situations.
Don Bosco's Concern for a Fallen Priest Who Became a Waldensian Pastor
Vain however, was the effort of John Bosco to the Catholic priest Luigi De Sanctis. The Roman De Sanctis was a member of the Camillian Order, a professor of theology and a well-known priest in Rome in the 1830s. But in the revolutionary year of 1848, De Sanctis turned his back on the Catholic Church, left his Order and its parish and went to Malta. He became a Protestant and married. A little later he was Vicar of Pastor Meille in Turin and took part in the anti-Catholic magazine "The Evangelical Light", which was directed primarily against Don Bosco. When it came to conflicts within the Waldensians, De Sanctis became Calvinist, which is was what cost him his place in the Waldensians and plunged him into a deep crisis.
Don Bosco contacted De Sanctis on 17 November 1854. He tried to pave the apostate priest's way back to the Catholic Church. The move may seem surprising, after all, De Sanctis was a "traitor" and had written numerous writings against the Catholic Church, especially attacks against the Sacrament of Penance. But Don Bosco was convinced of the dogma, Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus. He was concerned about the salvation of the souls of men.
In fact, De Sanctis replied. This resulted in an intense exchange of letters that has been preserved. "You can not imagine the impact that your friendly letter of yesterday had on me. I could never imagine that there is so much generosity and so much kindness in a man who is my open enemy. Let's make no mistake about it. I fight your principles and you fight my principles, but while you fight me, show me, love me sincerely ... "
Don Bosco, who was convinced that in a fallen priest there must prevail the largest moral dilemma, which is why he wanted to present him with his hand of friendship, but was disappointed. Six months later, De Sanctis resumed his attacks against the Catholic Church again, went to Florence, returned there back to the Waldensian Church and died a Waldensian in 1869. Don Bosco should speak of a "hardened heart" and a "darkened intellect", which kept its grasp on the former Camillian.
“Time for you to take your pills again.”
Remember, you work for me. You work overtime. You’ll need whatever pills you’re taking.
That is, indeed, rich...the Catholics try to defend what true Christianity is and the revolutionists scream and holler that their "new" ideas are correct.....yeah, THIS IS MY BODY doesn't mean this is my body....it means this is still a hunk of meaningless bread.....Thanks, Jesus, for making it so clear.......PATHETIC.
sure it is
I love it...
Actually, all you have is specious parroted polemical assertions which are exposed as such, to which RCs complain and demand censure as they cannot stand to see their desired image of Rome impugned.
THIS IS MY BODY doesn't mean this is my body....it means this is still a hunk of meaningless bread.....Thanks, Jesus, for making it so clear.......PATHETIC.
Which is another example of such, as in fact you do not go by the plain clear meaning of such, as this would mean that you are consuming the actual literal bloody body and blood of Christ, so that if tested, it would test as corporeal flesh and blood, which some RCs censure us for saying RCs teach (which others invoke purported miracles to support this being true).
For in reality what the Lord meant according to Eucharistic theology was "drink this cup," does not really mean drink the cup, but what it represents, and that "my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed," (John 6:55) and "eat this bread" only means recently made gluten-free bread, even a molecule of it, which in essence is the Lord's body and blood (since both are contained in the bread or wine) though the molecular composition (qualities) by which this appears as bread does not change, so vegetarians need not abstain. But the appearance (accidents) of bread and wine replace the appearance of the body and blood of Christ (who is in Heaven) who is really corporeally present under the appearance of bread and wine via a supernatural mode of existence. That is, if a man properly and distinctively ordained as a priest consecrates it so that Christ obeys him, even though no clergyman was so ordained in the New Testament, nor are any ever shown doing so or described as having that as a unique function.
And that "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you," (John 6:53) means - unlike My other 'verily verily' unequivocal statements - unless you are one of the properly baptized separated brethren, as they also have the Spirit, as did all those souls in the NT who received life in them when they believed the gospel."
Which it is not what Christ taught, but imports Neoplatonic philosophy to explain what you call "clear" teaching.
From a RC monk and defender:
Neoplatonic thought or at least conceptual terms are clearly interwoven with Christian theology long before the 13th century...
The doctrine of transubstantiation completely reverses the usual distinction between being and appearance, where being is held to be unchanging and appearance is constantly changing. Transubstantiation maintains instead that being or substance changes while appearance remains unchanged. Such reversals in the order of things are affronts to reason and require much, not little, to affirm philosophically. Moreover, transubstantiation seem to go far beyond the simple distinction between appearance and reality. It would be one thing if the body and blood of Christ simply appeared to be bread and wine. But I don’t think that is what is claimed with “transubstantiation.”
Aristotle picked up just such common-sense concepts as “what-it-is-to-be-X” and tried to explain rather complex philosophical problems with them. Thus, to take a “common-sense” concept like substance–even if one could maintain that it were somehow purified of Aristotelian provenance—and have it do paradoxical conceptual gymnastics in order to explain transubstantiation seems not to be not so anti-Aristotelian in spirit after all...
That the bread and wine are somehow really the body and blood of Christ is an ancient Christian belief—but using the concept of “substance” to talk about this necessarily involves Greek philosophy (Br. Dennis Beach, OSB, monk of St. John’s Abbey; doctorate in philosophy from Penn State; http://www.praytellblog.com/index.php/2010/05/30/transubstantiation-and-aristotle-warning-heavy-philosophy)
Supposing one gains spiritual life by literally eating human flesh and blood is akin to pagan endocannibalism, and is not Scriptural and the Scriptural gospel.
Alpers and Lindenbaum’s research conclusively demonstrated that kuru [neurological disorder] spread easily and rapidly in the Fore people due to their endocannibalistic funeral practices, in which relatives consumed the bodies of the deceased to return the “life force” of the deceased to the hamlet, a Fore societal subunit. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuru_%...9#Transmission
he custom of eating bread sacramentally as the body of a god was practised by the Aztecs before the discovery and conquest of Mexico by the Spaniards."
The May ceremony is thus described by the historian Acosta: “The Mexicans in the month of May made their principal feast to their god Vitzilipuztli, and two days before this feast, the virgins whereof I have spoken (the which were shut up and secluded in the same temple and were as it were religious women) did mingle a quantity of the seed of beets with roasted maize, and then they did mould it with honey, making an idol...all the virgins came out of their convent, bringing pieces of paste compounded of beets and roasted maize, which was of the same paste whereof their idol was made and compounded, and they were of the fashion of great bones. They delivered them to the young men, who carried them up and laid them at the idol’s feet, wherewith they filled the whole place that it could receive no more. They called these morsels of paste the flesh and bones of Vitzilipuztli.
...then putting themselves in order about those morsels and pieces of paste, they used certain ceremonies with singing and dancing. By means whereof they were blessed and consecrated for the flesh and bones of this idol. This ceremony and blessing (whereby they were taken for the flesh and bones of the idol) being ended, they honoured those pieces in the same sort as their god....then putting themselves in order about those morsels and pieces of paste, they used certain ceremonies with singing and dancing. By means whereof they were blessed and consecrated for the flesh and bones of this idol. This ceremony and blessing (whereby they were taken for the flesh and bones of the idol) being ended, they honoured those pieces in the same sort as their god...
And this should be eaten at the point of day, and they should drink no water nor any other thing till after noon: they held it for an ill sign, yea, for sacrilege to do the contrary:...and then they gave them to the people in manner of a communion, beginning with the greater, and continuing unto the rest, both men, women, and little children, who received it with such tears, fear, and reverence as it was an admirable thing, saying that they did eat the flesh and bones of God, where-with they were grieved. Such as had any sick folks demanded thereof for them, and carried it with great reverence and veneration.”
...They believed that by consecrating bread their priests could turn it into the very body of their god, so that all who thereupon partook of the consecrated bread entered into a mystic communion with the deity by receiving a portion of his divine substance into themselves.
The doctrine of transubstantiation, or the magical conversion of bread into flesh, was also familiar to the Aryans of ancient India long before the spread and even the rise of Christianity. The Brahmans taught that the rice-cakes offered in sacrifice were substitutes for human beings, and that they were actually converted into the real bodies of men by the manipulation of the priest.
For in FACT only the metaphorical view is consistent with Scripture in its totality.
The Lord's Supper: solemn symbolism or real flesh and blood?
(Note: allow scripts for pop up Bible verses
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Thank you Lord Jesus for your sure word of Truth by which we are to prove all things. |
Wasn’t it Innocent 111 (2288-2326) who decreed transubstantiation in the Eucharist? Wasn’t he the same blood thirsty Pope who instituted the Inquisition and wasn’t he the same Pope who decreed infallibility, and wasn’t Innocent 111 the same Pope ... oh, never mind. Catholics can’t read that far anyway. They have to hold to the magic that the papal command chain is unbroken and always God’s vicar ... and wasn’t that another heresy of Innocent 111 decreeing himself the Vicar of God with all power of life and death on the Planet?
We know...
I won’t.
Scoot over when I get on so I can sit this time.
No WONDER the 'church' is in trouble!
#14: His Holiness sings Amazing Grace off key.
“Scoot over when I get on so I can sit this time.”
If I’m on the bus, I’m driving so there’s only room for me in that seat. Put your Playmaker™ Protective Helmet on and take your seat with the other kids.
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