Posted on 06/12/2015 6:18:39 AM PDT by ADSUM
It amazes me that supposedly intelligent people simply repeat the lies of the Catholic Church when shown how it lies.
I noticed. ;O)
No, the Catholic church needs to prove that it’s teachings are from God.
If they are claiming they are, it is their responsibility to provide the evidence.
It’s a fallacy to demand that everything they state be taken as the truth unless disproved, with ho supporting evidence on their part.
Say so is not enough to demand acceptance of their claims.
I could say that Peter owned a golf course and country club. Scripture doesn’t say he didn’t. Prove me wrong.
The perpetual virginity of Mary.
The immaculate conception.
The assumption of Mary.
Praying to angels and "saints", people other than God.
Calling priests *father* in direct disobedience to Jesus' clear command.
Eating of blood, which is specifically and clearly forbidden throughout Scripture.
A while back you posted material showing that the Catholic translation known as the Rheims version changed the meaning of apostasia in 2 Thess 2:3, to fit their ongoing and growing disputation witht he reformation. The word translated as The Departure through the first several translations suddenly became ‘a revolt’. Then the Protestants, in the rendering of the King James went even further into error translating it as ‘a falling away’ ... I guess trying to ride the fence is not new to human minds.
And where sin abounds, grace much more abounds. Grace is an indicator of sinfulness because someone without sin does not need grace.
Only sinners need grace.
Neither does the word *grace* mean *without sin*.
Mary and Grace
The word grace used in this passage in Luke is used in one other place in the Bible and that is Ephesians 1 where Paul is us that with this same grace, God has blessed us (believers) in the Beloved. IOW, we all have access to that grace and it has been bestowed on us all.
http://biblehub.com/greek/5487.htm
Luke 1:28 And he came to her and said, “Greetings, O favored one, the Lord is with you!”
Ephesians 1:4-6 In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Greek word “grace”
charitoó: to make graceful, endow with grace
Original Word: χαριτόω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: charitoó
Phonetic Spelling: (khar-ee-to'-o)
Short Definition: I favor, bestow freely on
Definition: I favor, bestow freely on.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 5487 xaritóō (from 5486 /xárisma, "grace," see there) – properly, highly-favored because receptive to God's grace. 5487 (xaritóō) is used twice in the NT (Lk 1:28 and Eph 1:6), both times of God extending Himself to freely bestow grace (favor).
Word Origin: from charis
Definition: to make graceful, endow with grace
NASB Translation: favored (1), freely bestowed (1).
2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
The word apostasy in Greek is apostasía (from 868 /aphístēmi, "leave, depart," which is derived from 575 /apó, "away from" and 2476 /histémi, "stand") – properly, departure (implying desertion); apostasy – literally, "a leaving, from a previous standing.",[http://biblehub.com/greek/646.htm]
Literally "a leaving from a previous standing." Match that with 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.
And you have Paul talking to the same people about the same issue. The believers "leaving a previous standing" and being "caught up together in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air". As Paul was saying in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the day of the Lord" cannot come until the body of Christ is "caught up" and "leaves it's previous standing" on this earth. He was assuring them that that day had not yet arrived.
The term "day of the Lord" always identifies a span of time during which God personally intervenes in history, directly or indirectly, to accomplish some specific aspect of His plan. John found himself in "the day of the Lord" when writing Revelation.
Catholics believe the bible and tradition. Do I know where every tradition comes from, no. Do I need to, no. I believe that the Catholic church was founded by Jesus Christ and that it has been safeguarded by the Holy Spirit. That is all I need to know. I don’t need proof of every single thing.
I was not always Catholic, I became one in 1993. I was brought up in a environment that God was love. That was pretty much it. God loves me and everyone else. My husband and I, after we had our first child, decided that we wanted to raise a faithful family with morals and virtue. Our spiritual paths came from different backgrounds and we needed to find something we could both agree on. The only stipulation from my husband was that it could not be the Catholic church. Ok, so we went searching, going to different churches each Sunday looking for the one that was right. We both felt God would give us a sign it we hit upon the one He wanted us to attend.
Well, during this time of searching, my mother lived with us and would watch EWTN, a Catholic tv network. At first I would turn my nose, why in the world would she be watching that. But, gradually through shows like Bob and Penny Lord’s lives of the saints, Eucharistic miracles, misc. other programs, and a single nun who was so unapologetic of her faith in Jesus and her church, my heart was slowly opened to the beauty of the Catholic faith.
My mother and I had many conversations about the faith and wanted to go to a Catholic church and check it out for ourselves. But where we live, there are 5 different parishes, which one would we go to? We didn’t know and so that kept us from trying any of them. Then one day we were out and seen a sign for a bake sale. Well, the Lord knows how much I love me a homemade cookie, and we stopped to see what they had. It just so happen to be a Catholic church and we showed up just about 10 minutes before the Saturday mass was to begin. So we thought we might as well stay and check it out. After the mass, we knew we were exactly where God has called us to be. But, what was I to do about my husband who had forbidden the Catholic church?
Well, this all took place about 4 weeks before lent was to begin. I told him we had gone to a Catholic mass, and that it wasn’t my fault, it was the cookies. He was furious. He told me we were to find a church together, but I said I would only go until we found something different and that I didn’t expect him to go.
So for the next 4 Sundays my mother and I got up and went to mass, I never asked him to go or even discussed anything about it to him. He heard us talking about the coming Wednesday being Ash Wednesday and that her and I would go. On that Wednesday, right before we left, he asked if he could come, and of course we said yes. As he describes it, the moment he entered the church, he felt an overwhelming peace and felt the true presence of God, that he knew this was where God wanted him.
We continued to go to the mass every Sunday, we didn’t receive communion, only sat and listened. We went to the stations of the cross on Fridays, boy did we work off those cookies. lol. Anyway, when it came to Holy Week, we went each night of the Triduum and at the end of the Easter vigil watching all the new members coming into the church we both were balling and wanted this for ourselves. I called the following Monday morning and was told us we would have to enter classes in the fall. I wanted it now and was disappointed that we had to wait, but the following Easter vigil, we became full fledged Catholics.
I was not baptized until that Easter vigil, I wanted it so bad I could taste it. This is what we mean when Catholics talk about “Baptism of Desire.” I know God would have looked upon my soul as a daughter of His if I would have died before I was finally baptized and entered in full communion with the Church.
So you see, I didn’t need to understand all the nitty gritty of everything. I never questioned the Eucharist, I had seen Eucharistic miracles, I understood the importance of the sacraments from reading about saints and my own study, I loved the devotionals and sacramentals, as a way for me to feel closer to Jesus. Not as some lucky rabbit’s foot, but as a reminder of who I want to be, a follower of Christ. I loved Mary for who she was and what she does. I believed in the apparitions of Fatima and Lourdes because of the miracles. All the miracles I read about and saw on programs, proved to me that the Catholic church was the one true church that I needed to follow.
I know some will say those miracles were from the devil, well there are things he can do and can’t. The miracles I believe in can only come from God Himself.
So you can believe what you wish, you can know all you want, you can think you are right, but in the end I know the truth.
Well this is my story and I am sticking to it.
And you accept them anyway?
Well..... You're entitled. It's a free country.
I wouldn't put my trust in something I didn't know the source of because I believe that that leaves one open to deception and then the demonic.
But I guess that's just me.
Yes, that’s just you ... after studying earnestly to show yourself approved! The Scriptures seem to have a way of digging the wood, hay, and stubble out of our mindsets don’tchaknow. I am sure there will be a whole lot of Saints standing nearly nekkid at the Bema seat of Christ IN HEACEN. Their wood, hay and stubble will get burned away but they themselves will be saved as by fire. Why saved anyway? Because it is God Who is in the believer and the Rapture of His Church is a glory to Him, not us.
1 Corinthians 2:14-16 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. “For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.
Yours was a great story. Thanks for sharing.
Today’s Gospel was about the mustard seed. I just watched it grow in your story, God is with us every moment. I am glad that you recognized Him.
God’s peace be with your family.
Your comment: “ If it was as clear as catholics contend, this would have been put to bed very, very early in the life of the church.
That is wasn’t speaks volumes. “
So do you just make up your opinion without facts?
The Immaculate Conception of Mary has been with the Catholic Church since the beginning:
The Fathers of the Church taught that Mary received a number of distinctive blessings in order to make her a more fitting mother for Christ and the prototypical Christian (follower of Christ). These blessings included her role as the New Eve (corresponding to Christ’s role as the New Adam), her Immaculate Conception, her spiritual motherhood of all Christians, and her Assumption into heaven. These gifts were given to her by God’s grace. She did not earn them, but she possessed them nonetheless.
Among others:
The Ascension of Isaiah
“[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’” (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).
The Odes of Solomon
“So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . “ (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
“[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]” (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).
Irenaeus
“Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according
And if every ECF agreed you might have a point. But they didn’t.
• In the same manner St. Basil writes in the fourth century: he sees in the sword, of which Simeon speaks, the doubt which pierced Mary's soul (Epistle 259).
•St. Chrysostom accuses her of ambition, and of putting herself forward unduly when she sought to speak to Jesus at Capharnaum ( Matthew 12:46 ; Chrysostom, Hom. xliv; cf. also "In Matt.", hom. 4).
Picky! Picky! So you require 100% agreement. Then seek out a dictator. I think the Korean dictator gets a 100%.
I hope that you will get the whole truth when you die.
I will defend the teachings of the Catholic Church as best as I can, but I do not understand the negative anti-Catholic feelings that are based on personal opinions, feelings or half truths.
Some of the mysteries of God, we need to take on faith. Can you fully understand and explain the Trinity?
Sources?
catholic encyclopedia online.
Well....we have contradiction on this topic and many others from the ECFs.
As I said....if the ECFs were in 100% agreement you and other catholics might have a point.
But as has been shown the ECFs are not in unanimous agreement....unless catholicism redefines unanimous.
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