'God Will Forgive': Using Grace to Defend Abortion

breakingpoint.org ^ | June 2, 2015 9:47 PM | Rolley Haggard

[Morgana]

Ask any sidewalk counselor. Odds are he or she has heard some version of this from those heading into the abortion clinic: “I know it's wrong. But I'm a Christian and I've prayed about it and I know God will forgive. His grace is greater than all my sin.”

What's wrong with this picture? (Other than the fact that a baby is about to be deliberately put to death.) Most Christians instinctively sense something's desperately out of whack here. But what?

Sadly, few seem able to put their finger on it. Sadder still is that after they sift through their own thoughts on the matter, nine times out of 10 they wind up less sure that, from a biblical standpoint, there really is anything substantially wrong with such statements. They know murder is wrong, but they also know the Bible teaches that God can forgive any sin.* Their reasoning often runs along these lines:

“It is true God can forgive any sin. And it's true Christ died for all sins, past, present, and future. And it's true God will forgive anyone who truly repents and asks for forgiveness. And this person really does seem to be a Christian who's in a difficult situation. So, even though it's terribly tragic that they feel the need to abort their child, technically they are correct: God will forgive them.”

[FourtySeven]

This is a good post on the subject (I never knew such a phenomenon occurred actually, and apparently with regularity too) but I think it’s a bit too obtuse. It makes a good argument but takes a while getting there. I think this situation is best viewed from the “Bart Simpson method of salvation”. Because that’s really what this is, when you boil it down to the essential.

The Bart Simpson plan for salvation, for those who don’t know, goes something like this: sin all you want for your whole life but at the very last moment, right before you die, you say “sorry!” To God and ask to be forgiven. After all, Simpson reasons, God forgives all sin so why not take that cake and eat it too?

That’s essentially the reasoning here, of the poor young mother in question. Anyone can see though how comically wrong Bart Simpson is, so it isn’t any problem, really, to see how wrong such mothers to be are either. Both are wrong for the same, comical reason.

In the case for the woman contemplating abortion, it would be just as funny as it is with Bart Simpson, if it didn’t involve the real killing of a child.

[RnMomof7]

We agree on the need for a sever repentance ...and yes I think there are many that think they are saved and are not

[SkyPilot]

So Does God forgive abortion, yes...

Yes. Absolutely.

The parable of the sower of seed has great meaning, but it does not mean that there is any sin that Christ will not forgive. Rather, it is a parable about those who hear the Word and reject it, or allow the Word to die in their hearts.

I agree with that any sin can be forgiven if one is in Christ. And yes, as Mrs. Don-o said, repentance is what we are called to do by Christ. You can look up the number of time He Himself said to people "Repent." He would usually say this in the context that he Kingdom of God was here.

I also agree that this is a very tough subject, for one basic reason. We all sin. Even after we are saved by Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit indwells with us, we still sin. Now, James Chapter 2 tells us clearly that our faith via Christ changes us. If we are not changed by the Holy Spirit in our lives, our faith is probably dead.

However, we are not saved by anything we "do." Good works are a manifestation that we are saved. Just as we truly love our brothers in sisters in Christ and the Jewish people if we are saved. These are significant signs that we are saved. When we sin, we feel terrible if we are in Christ. Because the Holy Spirit grieves us to repentance.

Have you come across people whose consciouses are so seared they care not a whit who they hurt, or what they do? Of course you have. These are the wicked, and we deal with them every day. But God brings those in Him back into the fold - gently, but also with judgment at times. God's first and foremost concern is not our comfort here on earth, but our ultimate salvation.

Here is what cuts me to the heart about sinning (and when I sin). Hebrews 2: 1-4.

"We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will."

What the author of Hebrews (speaking through Holy Spirit) said what that we must be careful - because to know Christ and reject salvation is grave indeed.

So that when I sin, I feel worse than I could imagine, and I must confess that sin and seek forgiveness.

This is serious business. Has my salvation left me if I fall into sin? I don't believe so, although some may disagree with me. Here is why I believe I cannot lose my salvation:

Romans 8: 38-39.

"38 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, 39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

I think what the author to this piece is saying that we should not go about sinning great sin beforehand, thinking that we can just cover everything up. For one thing, all believers will sit on the judgment seat of Christ. This is not the same judgment the unbelievers have - we won't face the Great White Throne Judgment. Christ saved us from that. But we will be called into account for our actions, good and bad. We may lose rewards or crowns in heaven on account of what we have done, or not done. Every work will be brought into account. This is sobering.

Here is what encourages me though. What did that thief who was crucified next to Christ do to earn his salvation in paradise? No works. He was saved because he asked Jesus to save him. And Jesus did, with one of his last, dying breaths.

[SkyPilot]

But we must also remember David, a man after God own heart that murdered . God had him confronted with his sin and he repented.. Jesus offered forgiveness to the men that crucified Him

I just re-read your post and saw this part. Exactly - you posted a very wise statement about David, and both you and I hearkened to the example of the man crucified with Jesus who asked Him for salvation.

David's sin cost him dearly. The first child born through adultery with Bathsheba died. David's family was torn to pieces in later years, and his own son went to war with him and tried to murder him.

Sin is so terrible, it took Christ's torture and death to bring us right before God.

[metmom]

Matthew 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

In a word. Yes.

That's why Paul tells us to examine ourselves and see if we're in the faith.

What's the fruit of a regenerated life?

[SkyPilot]

So if a person is a Christian-in-name-only, they might THINK they're saved, but they're not?

We know there are nominal "Christians." Obama says he is a Christian. Is he one? Certainly not! Christ told us we would know each other by our fruits.

I will tell you, from a personal level, that when I accepted Christ, I knew, with 100% certainty, that I was saved by Him.

Scripture speaks to this twice in 1 John 4:14 and 5:13.

"We know that we live in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit."

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life."

I also can testify that before I personally accepted Jesus Christ, I knew I was going to Hell.

[metmom]

Yes.

And.....?

[Mrs. Don-o]

And... so it comes out, in effect, that you actually don't know whether you're saved or just presumptuous and self-deceiving, until you draw your last breath. Which is why I like Joan of Arc's answer when she was asked, "Joan, are you in a state of grace?" --- "If I am not, then may God put me there; if I am, then may God keep me there."

And again:

"Christ has saved me; Christ is saving me; I pray by Christ's mercy He will save me."

[Rashputin]

The answer, you said, is "No," but your explanation says "Yes"

You get that a lot from the anti-Catholic crowd but given the strength of the diabolical delusion they're under they can't see that what they're saying and the conclusion they reach don't fit together.

[metmom]

Presumption is a sin coined by Catholicism to condemn those who take God's word at face value and have the confidence that Jesus promised them that they can KNOW that they are saved.

When a person trusts in the finished work of Christ on the cross, there is no presumption about being saved. That person IS saved.

It's those who trust in themselves.

God gives us the means by which we can know both through the word and through the Holy Spirit.

"Christ has saved me; Christ is saving me; I pray by Christ's mercy He will save me."

If you have been saved, then you don't need to pray that you will be saved. You are once He has done it.

If you claim that you have been saved and then you pray that Christ will save you, all that does is reveal that you don't believe that He saved you in the first place. It's a lack of trust and belief in God. How can you trust Him to save you in the future when you can't trust that what you say He did in the past He really did?

[Mrs. Don-o]

I think your response does not take fully into account every person's propensity to fool themselves.

It's not that Jesus' saving us is in doubt: He is God, and all His actions are eternal, infinite, because they are done by God. It's that we ARE prone to presumption: presumption on one side, and despair on the other.

As St. Paul said,

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?

1 Cor 9:27
" I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified."

Perseverence is required of us. Surely he was mindful of what the Lord said:

Matthew 10:22
You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:12-13
Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold. The one who perseveres to the end will be saved.

Luke 21:19
Stand firm, and you will win life.

[Morgana]

“”It is hard to imagine that anyone who is truly born of the Spirit of God (born again) could kill their own child.”

That’s my take on it also, brother.
Just last Saturday we got: “hey, we’re Christians, we go to church - so go F*** yourselves” - from a young couple going in.

“By their fruits you will know them”. :

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

This issue of “Christians having abortions” has come up time and time again. I keep posting these stories and FReepers keep not believe them.

You have seen the stories I have posted about pro choice ministers. About ministers working at abortion clinics. About people who claim they “know Jesus” coming out of an abortion clinic how many do I need to post before you realize what is going on?

The problem here is that all of you don’t know scripture and abortion but that your fellow Christians don’t!

Folks there are people in YOUR churches having abortions! Did I shock you? I hope I did because you need to quit the finger pointing and ask “what can I do about this?”

Under stand that what they have done can be forgiven yes! However your pastor/priest/minister needs to be preaching before hand that this is a SIN!! Do you all have any idea how many churches I meet and when I ask “are you pro life” they tell me “yes but our minister does not preach on political issues”. FReepers if YOUR minister/preacher/priest is saying that, you get a new one! Do you hear me?

If you or a woman in your church has had an abortion you need to ask God for forgive you. If you are Catholic that means you need to go to confession. You also may need some place like Rachael Vinyard for healing. If you or someone in your church encouraged/forced a woman to have an abortion you too need to ask God to forgive you/take confession.

Does your church have flyers for crisis pregnancy centers located in your area? (if there are any?) Does your church have any flyers for post abortion counseling centers? Does your church actively protest the local abortion mill or participate in the Life Walk? Does your church do anything for the pro life movement??

While I’m on this rant, I want to give a shout out to Colofornian for suggesting that book by George Grant: “Grand Illusions The Legacy of Planned Parenthood”. Dude I’m on chapter 2 but my mind is blown. FReepers, GET THAT BOOK! I got one for myself and my churches’ library.

Now make sure your church is a pro life church.

[metmom]

Under stand that what they have done can be forgiven yes! However your pastor/priest/minister needs to be preaching before hand that this is a SIN!!

I don't know that any church I've been in when abortion is mentioned that it isn't clearly stated as being sin.

Don't presume that it's the churches of those Christians on this board. Maybe it is some churches in the mainline denominations that don't take the word of God seriously any more. The ones which teach that Scripture is just analogy etc. The liberal mainline ones are not the ones that are represented here on the Forum.

[Morgana]

Well you know the Bible warned us about wolves in sheep's clothing. I guess since I'm so involved in the pro life movement I have a tendency to find those churches more easily. You will just have to take my word for it, I have had preachers tell me that the abortion issue is "political", and I fired right back and said "No, it's Biblical"

[metmom]

I’m still trying to figure out why Catholics seem to think that the Catholic church is the only church taking a stand against abortion.

What makes Catholics think that other non-Catholic churches DON’T actively protests abortion clinics? That they DON’T advise or counsel women to go to crisis pregnancy centers? That they don’t support them? That they don’t work at them?

One pastor who was pastoring a church I attended for a while spent time in jail because of his involvement in Operation Rescue. Catholics need to get off their elitist high horse and quit acting like they’re the only ones opposing abortion.

The holier-than-thou attitude of Catholics when it comes to the abortion issue because they think they’re the only ones doing it, is not warranted in the least and it’s a slap in the face of all the wonderful, passionate NON-Catholic men and women who oppose abortion at great personal sacrifice.

[metmom]

It’s moral as well, and any pastor who wimps out on it doesn’t deserve the title.

There’s a serious lack of men in this country who are willing to just be men and take a stand for right and against wrong, across all denominations. ALL of them.

[Morgana]

I told someone I know what that pastor said. They said “that’s keyword for they are Democrats”. In this area I believe it.

[RnMomof7]

Under stand that what they have done can be forgiven yes! However your pastor/priest/minister needs to be preaching before hand that this is a SIN!

Exactly .... recently at the end of a sermon my Pastor said even if the Supreme Court rules for gay marriage he would continue to preach about the sin ..even if it meant losing the tax exemption or fines..

[Colofornian]

If you are truly saved by Christ, He says no one can snatch them from His hand.

Indeed. Nobody else can snatch any of us from His hand.

Nobody snagged those angel-turned-demons, either.

They all left of their own volition. They removed their former Lord's gripped fingers...one at a time...like some within the Church-at-large...like the people Hebrews 6 describes:

4 It is impossible for those who have once...
(a)... been enlightened,
(b)...who have tasted the heavenly gift,
(c)...who have shared in the Holy Spirit,
(d)... 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God
(e)... and the powers of the coming age
6 and who have FALLEN AWAY, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. (vv. 4-6)

[Mrs. Don-o]

Amen x 100, Morgana!