Posted on 06/01/2015 11:54:08 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
I am not equation homosexuality or heterosexuality with pedophilia, nor am I saying that Josh Duggar ever committed homosexual acts at any point in time in any way, shape. form or fashion.
The point of this thread is like all of the others threads that I have written, and it is not meant to bash Josh Duggar. The point is to look at this situation and use it as a catalyst to continue on with other threads that I have started that deal with the following: "What constitutes salvation?" "Who is truly saved?" "Do we go by Arminianism or Calvinism?"
If Josh Duggar committed acts of molestation at age 14-15 (allegedly) and if what the Duggars have said is true that Josh Duggar gave his life to Jesus at age 7-8, was Josh Duggar truly saved at that age or was he falsely saved?
If he was saved at age 7-8 and later did commit these alleged acts, did he lose his salvation at that time of the alleged acts or sometime before he committed these alleged acts?
A.) I believe that 1.) molesting kids is a sin just as 2.) homosexuality is. There are those who disagree with me and say that 1 is a sin but 2 is not. So be it. The point that all would agree on is that #1 is at least equal to or worse a sin than #2 is, be #1 being same sex or opposite sex molestation.
If Josh Duggar committed these alleged acts then and was saved before he committed these alleged acts and saved still even after committing these alleged acts, can another person then commit homosexual acts at that age and still be saved both before and after committing them?
If not, and a person at age 14-15 commits homosexual acts and this is proof that they were falsely saved and were never saved to begin with, then was Josh Duggar, if he committed these alleged acts, falsely saved at that time?
If so, and he and his family said after he was age 7-8 that he was saved, how do we know now that he is saved if he says now that he is saved? How can we know wh9ch Duggar is saved and which isn't?
How do we know that some 'Joe Blow' person out there who goes down to the altar, is heard giving his life to Jesus, shows good fruit until he is 18, goes off to Bible college to become a Baptist minister and is still showing good fruit, graduates, becomes a youth minister and then later on goes off the rail after his wife and child die in a car accident and is out fornicating, smoking pot like it is going out of style, drinking like a fish and so on? Was this 'Joe Blow' ever truly saved?
If he is "out of fellowship with Christ" but still saved then if a person were to commit these alleged acts that Josh allegedly committed, would they be "out of fellowship" with Christ but still saved? If so, and #1 is at least worse than or as bad as #2 in A.) above, can a person commit homosexual acts and be "out of fellowship with Christ" yet still saved?
Hate the sin. Love the sinner.
"Finally then, brethren, we urge and exhort in the Lord Jesus that you should abound more and more, just as you received from us how you ought to walk and to please God; for you know what commandments we gave you through the Lord Jesus.
For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality; that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, not in passion of lust, like the Gentiles who do not know God; that no one should take advantage of and defraud his brother in this matter, because the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also forewarned you and testified. For God did not call us to uncleanness, but in holiness. Therefore he who rejects this does not reject man, but God, who has also given us His Holy Spirit."
Was the 14 year old Dugger even taught this command? It's rare for a church to teach it. Once aware, did he repent and learn to obey it? We don't know.
You can not call those things good or normal or blame it on others
Every person can be forgiven if they ask God.
A change in their behavior is a sign of the internal change God manifests in the person.
re: “But one can believe by faith they are putting their trust in Jesus, but how do we know who look from afar that they are saved? They may be duping us.”
That’s very true, they may indeed be duping us, but they cannot dupe God. And, after all, He’s the one that counts, right?
re: “While Baptists/Calvinists don’t engage in moral relativism, they do engage in salvific relativism and salvation is all in the eye of the beholder...”
I am Baptist, not Calvinist, nor completely Arminian, but I don’t believe that salvation is in the eye of the beholder. It is God who is doing the “beholding”. He sees what’s in the human heart - we cannot do this. Therefore, we cannot judge whether or not a person is “saved” simply by their behavior.
However, having said that, I do think that what a person does gives evidence to what is in their heart. The Apostle John says in 1 John 3:11-24, among other things, “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death”, and then in the same passage,
“Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.”
John points out that we demonstrate that we really love God when we obey His commands.
Also, notice where John says that we know the He lives in us by the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) He gave us. As I said before, our salvation is not feelings based, and, I do not believe that John is referring to a purely emotional experience as evidence that God’s Spirit is in us. But, I do believe that from time to time, we will have experiences that confirm to us God’s love for us and our love for Him. That may or may not involve an emotional response.
The context of what John is saying is that if we see in ourselves hatred for others, unconcern for those suffering poverty or some other need that we could help with, but don’t - John is saying we truly are lying to ourselves that we belong to God. In other words - actions speak louder than words or feelings, etc.
Does that mean that Christians will never succumb to hatred or apathy? I think Christians certainly can. Our “perfection” or “maturity” in Christ will never be complete until we are in Heaven.
Some denominations believe that a person can lose their salvation and regain it, lose it again, regain it, and so on.
I believe that the Bible teaches the principle that when we become a Christian, we are born again, born into His family as one of His children. Jesus said no one can pluck one of His children out of His hand. I do not believe God performs spiritual abortions. We all sin. Sometimes the sins are outward so that everyone can see them, but oftentimes they are inward and only God knows about them, yet both are still sin.
But, remember, we did not deserve God’s salvation to begin with. We can never be “good enough” to earn His forgiveness. It is purely by God’s grace through His Son Jesus that we can be saved.
So, my belief is, since we never deserved God’s forgiveness in the first place, and can never earn it, then, after we are saved - does that me we have to earn God’s love to keep our salvation? Do you see what I’m saying? I’m not saying outward actions or “works” aren’t important - they certainly are, but since these things couldn’t save us before we were Christians, how can they keep us saved after we are Christians?
Actions are evidence, but they aren’t the whole story. The good news (or bad news depending on one’s position with God), is that God sees our hearts, knows our thoughts, our intentions, motives, etc. He is the ultimate judge. No one dupes God.
“Losing your salvation” is patent nonsense, since Jesus “is able to save to the uttermost those who come to God through Him”. Anyone here want to call Him a liar? The mind set on the flesh—trying to do good/not do evil—is death, so that mind approaching the Scriptures will always create a back door works salvation incapable of saving anyone (including those who delude themselves into thinking they don’t sin).
Jesus’ “go and sin no more” was to a certain woman at a certain time. Did anyone on this forum “go and sin no more”? Didn’t think so. Remember, if you want to play with the Law you have to keep it all. Stumble at one point and you’ve broken all of it. Game over.
No, this doesn’t mean “sin so grace will abound”. Yet because of who GOD is through Jesus Christ, grace DOES abound! He is a God of steadfast love! Get into the Psalms and revel in HIM and His goodness. Lifts you up.
Bottom line, the works fanatics do NOT keep the Law. They’re failures like the rest of us. I refuse to listen to them because they refuse the finished work of Christ. They think He needs their help. They are wrong.
Then you have no assurance whatever. How much does it cost to get a ruling on that?
I give you this one for free.
I will cast your sins into the sea of forgetfulness, never to be remembered again.
We will according to Scripture. 2Co 13:11 says we should strive for perfection so it must be attainable.
2Pe_1:10 So then, my friends, try even harder to make God’s call and his choice of you a permanent experience; if you do so, you will never abandon your faith.
1 Thess. 5:23-24...
“Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you completely, and may your whole spirit and soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. He who calls you is faithful; he will surely do it.”
Sounds like perfection to me.
The their on the Cross gained salvation seconds before death.
Sounds wonderful to me.
“The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is THE LORD’S DOING, and it is marvelous in our eyes”
We were chosen in Him from BEFORE the foundation of the world (Ephesians). Let’s not slander Him and accuse Him of lying when He said He would keep us. The Bible front to back gives no one a delusion that they have not sinned or will not sin. Who uttered so many beautiful (then) hidden truths about the Lord Jesus in the Psalms?
An adulterer, to hear some tell it. A murderer!
No, turns out it was a man after God’s own heart.
Our Lord also said the only sin which is not forgivable is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
Neither I nor Abba Sisoes contended any such thing. We must just get up again and again.
So what? Do you have to know who is saved? The Bible says to judge them by their fruits, but regardless of works, you can't determine another's salvatory state, and why would you want to? Got extra time on your hands to point at the publican? They won't dupe God. A person's salvation is between themselves and God.
“This ought to cover it for you. Mark 3:28-30”
Please read the whole passage, even the whole chapter. Jesus makes it very clear that attributing the works of the Holy Spirit to the devil, Satan, is “the Sin against the Holy Spirit’...’the unforgivable sin.
This is what the Pharisee’s did in this instance.
Your answer does not relate to the question posed here.
And while we are discussing, what about David and Bathsheba? Unforgivable? In New Testament parlance, he was already ‘saved’. And if we believe what the Bible teaches, David is with Jesus now, saved for all Eternity.
But that doesn't mean that any sin is not deadly or damning
AP, in rereading my post once home from work, when I said “Let’s not slander Him” I did not mean to imply YOU per se...just all of us in general.
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