Posted on 06/01/2015 11:54:08 AM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
I am not equation homosexuality or heterosexuality with pedophilia, nor am I saying that Josh Duggar ever committed homosexual acts at any point in time in any way, shape. form or fashion.
The point of this thread is like all of the others threads that I have written, and it is not meant to bash Josh Duggar. The point is to look at this situation and use it as a catalyst to continue on with other threads that I have started that deal with the following: "What constitutes salvation?" "Who is truly saved?" "Do we go by Arminianism or Calvinism?"
If Josh Duggar committed acts of molestation at age 14-15 (allegedly) and if what the Duggars have said is true that Josh Duggar gave his life to Jesus at age 7-8, was Josh Duggar truly saved at that age or was he falsely saved?
If he was saved at age 7-8 and later did commit these alleged acts, did he lose his salvation at that time of the alleged acts or sometime before he committed these alleged acts?
A.) I believe that 1.) molesting kids is a sin just as 2.) homosexuality is. There are those who disagree with me and say that 1 is a sin but 2 is not. So be it. The point that all would agree on is that #1 is at least equal to or worse a sin than #2 is, be #1 being same sex or opposite sex molestation.
If Josh Duggar committed these alleged acts then and was saved before he committed these alleged acts and saved still even after committing these alleged acts, can another person then commit homosexual acts at that age and still be saved both before and after committing them?
If not, and a person at age 14-15 commits homosexual acts and this is proof that they were falsely saved and were never saved to begin with, then was Josh Duggar, if he committed these alleged acts, falsely saved at that time?
If so, and he and his family said after he was age 7-8 that he was saved, how do we know now that he is saved if he says now that he is saved? How can we know wh9ch Duggar is saved and which isn't?
How do we know that some 'Joe Blow' person out there who goes down to the altar, is heard giving his life to Jesus, shows good fruit until he is 18, goes off to Bible college to become a Baptist minister and is still showing good fruit, graduates, becomes a youth minister and then later on goes off the rail after his wife and child die in a car accident and is out fornicating, smoking pot like it is going out of style, drinking like a fish and so on? Was this 'Joe Blow' ever truly saved?
If he is "out of fellowship with Christ" but still saved then if a person were to commit these alleged acts that Josh allegedly committed, would they be "out of fellowship" with Christ but still saved? If so, and #1 is at least worse than or as bad as #2 in A.) above, can a person commit homosexual acts and be "out of fellowship with Christ" yet still saved?
But how do you know that God dwells within you? Has your heart deceived you into thinking this? It is possible, right?
And how do you not know that your heart isn’t deceiving you into thinking you know the Shepherd as “The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked, who can know it?”?
No, I am not saying that.
All have sinned and have come short of the glory of God, and no one can go through life without sinning, saved or unsaved.
The point is that one sin does not remove salvation, but Baptists/Calvinists can’t sit back though and say:
“We don’t know how many sins it takes to show that a person was never saved in the first place.”
Because it they say that no one can know at what point a person finally shows they were never saved in the first place, then anyone can go around saying they are still saved, just “out of fellowship with Christ” despite what they are doing and you will have CHAOS.
Doesn’t really matter:
All Christians should strive to be as sinless as possible, not dip their toe in the water to see just how much sin they can get away with.
Matthew 12:31-32
“Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.”
If we are saved, sin and then ask for forgiveness we will be forgiven of that sin. No matter how many times, but the question comes in if whether the person has repented of that sin, if they continually repeat that sin over and over.
The individual shouldn’t be worrying about what baptists or calvinists think. They should be working out their own salvation with fear and trembling...before God
But at what point does a person’s repentance become just one repentance after another and on and on and on?
At what point do Baptists/Calvinists say that a person has finally proven by their actions that they were never saved in the first place?
Anyone can go around repeatedly saying “Yes, I am struggling, but still saved” then others can take it a little bit further and others push the envelope of sinning even more so, until there is Baptist-bred CHAOS as to who is truly or falsely saved (never saved to begin with).
Again, what number or amount of sins or sinning constitutes “continually”?
With Baptists/Calvinists, they act as if they don’t know.
You can’t ever get them to say that “This finally shows that this person was never saved to begin with,” as you always have those who say “No, they are still saved, just out of fellowship.”
Baptists/Calvinists don’t engage in moral relativism, but they do engage in salvific relativism.
re: “Is salvation knowable?”
Yes, of course - however, salvation is not a matter of “feeling”, but of faith in God’s Word. God said, “Whoever calls upon the Name of the Lord will be saved.” Jesus said, “For God so loved the world that He gave is only begotten Son, that WHOEVER believes in Him would not perish, but have everlasting life.”
We must have faith that God will keep His Word. Faith is not a matter of feeling, but of trust in His inerrant word.
I can know that I am saved, not because I “feel” saved, but through faith - based on the fact of God’s promises and His keeping of His Word to us that if we confess our sin, repent, and believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, who lived, died, was buried, and resurrected from the dead - we are saved because God said if we came to Him, He would forgive and save us.
Now, if someone claims to be a Christian, yet there lives show no change or just keep on living a sinful life, that could be evidence that they really are not a believer. A real Christian disciple of Jesus allows Christ to be Lord of their lives - each and every day. Every Christian fails/sins sometimes, but God is willing to forgive us and brush us off and set us on the right path when we confess that sin and turn to following God’s Lordship once again.
re: “Yes, there are many scriptures in the NT where the Apostles wrote to people to assure them of their salvation, but God was inspiring those apostles and knew that the people being written to were saved. That was then and they were writing to them. You have no assurance that those scriptures apply to you as they were writing to them then under the inspiration of God.”
Now, you mentioned that you know of “many scriptures in the NT where the Apostles wrote to people to assure them of their salvation. . .” Can you please give me a few references to these passages, because I am not aware that the Apostles ever did that.
Yes, they did encourage others to remain strong in their faith, to stay true to belief in God’s power and in His Word, and if they did that, they could trust that God would keep His promises, but, I never, to my knowledge, read where they told someone that they KNEW they were saved. All encouragement was tied to the readers obedience, faith, and trust in God.
Baloney.
Jesus said “If anyone were to offend one of these little ones, it would be better that a millstone were hung around his neck and cast into the sea.”
And Jesus wasn’t talking about stealing, either.
He was talking about offending CHILDREN. We know what He meant.
Thus some sins offend Jesus far worse than others.
Yes, Romans 10:9-10 says that salvation is faith-based.
But one can believe by faith they are putting their trust in Jesus, but how do we know who look from afar that they are saved?
They may be duping us.
And thus Baptists/Calvinists will never say “This act or acts of sin/sins has reached a point that shows such and such never saved in the first place.”
You get one thing from one and something else from another with some saying they are still saved, and others saying they never were saved.
While Baptists/Calvinists don’t engage in moral relativism, they do engage in salvific relativism and salvation is all in the eye of the beholder...
And once again, we have no idea if any Duggar is truly saved or not...
On each occasion of its occurrence, therefore, the phrase “these little ones” evinces itself, independently, a designation, not of children, but of the disciples of Christ.
http://www.the-highway.com/littleones_Warfield.html
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer’s%20Corner/Doctrines/little_ones.htm
“Again, was Josh Duggar falsely saved at age 7-8 when he was supposedly “saved”?”
what do you mean by saved and what does his parents mean by saved? are they saying Josh accepted Christ as his saviour at 7-8? even if he accepted Christ as his saviour at that age, it does not preclude him from succumbing to sin again later in life, as it would for anyone.
if a person sins and truly repents of his sin; then, through the atoning grace of our Lord and Saviour, he will be saved regardless of any backsliding, unless the sin involves denying the Holy Ghost’s revelation to that individual of the truthfulness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
people routinely on their death beds accept Christ as their saviour, regardless of the life they have led, and many, if not most, churches accept that as enough to ensure their salvation [but not all, e.g. the mormon church].
whether Josh was “truly” or “falsely” saved at the age of 7-8 [however interpreted] has no bearing on his ultimate judgment and salvation by the Good Lord upon his death.
Hey tell us about YOUR experience? This question seems to trouble you? Hmmmmmmmmmm?
I might disagree with your contention that if a Christian dies with an unconfessed sin, he dies condemned. My understanding of the grace of God that we gain access to by confessing that Jesus paid the penalty for our sins.
Once we’ve done that, we’re covered. Now, if one then goes out and continues to cheat on our taxes, cheat on our wives, speed, curse and steal, that might be a sign that one’s ‘conversion’ wasn’t a real one.
Let the discourse begin...
“If they repent and sin no more they will be forgiven.”
If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
“But how do you know that God dwells within you? “
Paul says we should “test your faith to see if it is genuine” and we will know our faith is genuine by our fruit.
We are being Saved. The proof of Salvation is in dying Saved. You cannot be plucked from His Hand but you can jump out. You can claim Salvation all you want but it doesn’t mean you are Saved.
Josh succumbed to sin just like all of us. Anyone who has thought of such a thing is just as guilty as Josh.
It will be up to Jesus to say if the individual repented and
sinned no more.
We will answer for ourselves and not for someone else.
We will always sin until we reach perfection.
We will not reach perfection in this life.
Worry about yourself. Quit worrying about other people... Unless you are worrying about yourself.
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