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To: rusty schucklefurd

Yes, Romans 10:9-10 says that salvation is faith-based.

But one can believe by faith they are putting their trust in Jesus, but how do we know who look from afar that they are saved?

They may be duping us.

And thus Baptists/Calvinists will never say “This act or acts of sin/sins has reached a point that shows such and such never saved in the first place.”

You get one thing from one and something else from another with some saying they are still saved, and others saying they never were saved.

While Baptists/Calvinists don’t engage in moral relativism, they do engage in salvific relativism and salvation is all in the eye of the beholder...

And once again, we have no idea if any Duggar is truly saved or not...


69 posted on 06/01/2015 1:37:05 PM PDT by Laissez-faire capitalist
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist

re: “But one can believe by faith they are putting their trust in Jesus, but how do we know who look from afar that they are saved? They may be duping us.”

That’s very true, they may indeed be duping us, but they cannot dupe God. And, after all, He’s the one that counts, right?

re: “While Baptists/Calvinists don’t engage in moral relativism, they do engage in salvific relativism and salvation is all in the eye of the beholder...”

I am Baptist, not Calvinist, nor completely Arminian, but I don’t believe that salvation is in the eye of the beholder. It is God who is doing the “beholding”. He sees what’s in the human heart - we cannot do this. Therefore, we cannot judge whether or not a person is “saved” simply by their behavior.

However, having said that, I do think that what a person does gives evidence to what is in their heart. The Apostle John says in 1 John 3:11-24, among other things, “We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death”, and then in the same passage,

“Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.”

John points out that we demonstrate that we really love God when we obey His commands.

Also, notice where John says that we know the He lives in us by the Spirit (the Holy Spirit) He gave us. As I said before, our salvation is not feelings based, and, I do not believe that John is referring to a purely emotional experience as evidence that God’s Spirit is in us. But, I do believe that from time to time, we will have experiences that confirm to us God’s love for us and our love for Him. That may or may not involve an emotional response.

The context of what John is saying is that if we see in ourselves hatred for others, unconcern for those suffering poverty or some other need that we could help with, but don’t - John is saying we truly are lying to ourselves that we belong to God. In other words - actions speak louder than words or feelings, etc.

Does that mean that Christians will never succumb to hatred or apathy? I think Christians certainly can. Our “perfection” or “maturity” in Christ will never be complete until we are in Heaven.

Some denominations believe that a person can lose their salvation and regain it, lose it again, regain it, and so on.

I believe that the Bible teaches the principle that when we become a Christian, we are born again, born into His family as one of His children. Jesus said no one can pluck one of His children out of His hand. I do not believe God performs spiritual abortions. We all sin. Sometimes the sins are outward so that everyone can see them, but oftentimes they are inward and only God knows about them, yet both are still sin.

But, remember, we did not deserve God’s salvation to begin with. We can never be “good enough” to earn His forgiveness. It is purely by God’s grace through His Son Jesus that we can be saved.

So, my belief is, since we never deserved God’s forgiveness in the first place, and can never earn it, then, after we are saved - does that me we have to earn God’s love to keep our salvation? Do you see what I’m saying? I’m not saying outward actions or “works” aren’t important - they certainly are, but since these things couldn’t save us before we were Christians, how can they keep us saved after we are Christians?

Actions are evidence, but they aren’t the whole story. The good news (or bad news depending on one’s position with God), is that God sees our hearts, knows our thoughts, our intentions, motives, etc. He is the ultimate judge. No one dupes God.


85 posted on 06/01/2015 4:05:09 PM PDT by rusty schucklefurd
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To: Laissez-faire capitalist
but how do we know who look from afar that they are saved? They may be duping us.

So what? Do you have to know who is saved? The Bible says to judge them by their fruits, but regardless of works, you can't determine another's salvatory state, and why would you want to? Got extra time on your hands to point at the publican? They won't dupe God. A person's salvation is between themselves and God.

97 posted on 06/01/2015 5:47:16 PM PDT by xone
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