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To: metmom

You asked for scriptural references; here they are:

In Matthew 24:13 we are told that those who persevere to the end will be saved – a clear refutation of the notion of eternal assurance. Romans 11:22 speaks on a similar theme. In Philippians 2:12 we are told to “work out your salvation with fear and trembling” - not only does this refute the idea that works are of no avail, but also shows – when read in the context of the whole passage – that the idea of eternal assurance is foolish.

I Corinthians contains two particular passages – 9:27 and 10:11-12 which speak very clearly on this subject. In fact, I Corinthians 10:11-12 refutes eternal assurance explicitly – saying that those who think they are secure may fail! II Timothy 2:11-13 says that we must “hold out to the end” in order to be saved.

There are also passages which speak specifically about those who have received Christ and have then fallen away. Galatians 5:4, Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-27 refer to people who are Christians (and, therefore, saved) but then commit sins and, while remaining Christians, are not likely to inherit Heaven.

Additionally, if we were forgiven all sins, past, present, and future, it would make no sense for Christ to require us to pray, “And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors,” which he explained is required because “if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses” (Matthew 6:12-15).

The illogic of eternal assurance

Eternal assurance is an illogical position for the same reason that sola fides is illogical – it denies free will and the very existence of sin. If one is eternally assured of salvation after stepping into some “group” of the saved, then what does it matter if we sin? It in fact means that sin does not exist – there are no moral absolutes and there is nothing that will offend God. This means we cannot choose God, and hence do not have free will. If there is no sin and we have no ability to choose sin or God, what need do we have for a savior? Eternal assurance in fact denies the very purpose for Christ’s incarnation.

The sin of presumption

The sin of presumption is the name given to the belief in eternal assurance; it is presuming on God’s mercy. It is not just a theologically incorrect position to hold, but is also one which is a sin because it makes one proud and think that one has no need of God’s further assistance. The person thinks they are already permanently “saved” and so they do not need God, the Church or anything else.


629 posted on 05/31/2015 4:36:02 PM PDT by ebb tide (We have a rogue curia in Rome.)
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To: ebb tide; RnMomof7

Matthew 24:13 is talking about the Tribulation period, not the age of grace we are in now.

Romans 11:22 Paul is talking about the Gentile people, not individual believers.

Philippians 2:12 Work it out means work through it NOT to earn it but to mature in it, to become more Christlike.

*Falling* doesn’t necessarily mean losing salvation. One can fall into sin and still be saved. And in some of those cases, God takes them early.

Galatians 5:4, Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-27 DO NOT refer to people who are Christians (and, therefore, saved).

We ALL commit sins after we’re saved. If that is your criteria, as RnMom pointed out recently, you have just nuked your theology of penance and reconciliation.

If your salvation can be lost by sin, then it can be kept by sin and has become a works based salvation, not a faith based salvation.

And then there’s the problem of contradiction with the passages I gave you, that say that our salvation is GUARANTEED by the deposit of the Holy Spirit in us.

So how about telling us how those verses don’t mean guaranteed after all?


645 posted on 05/31/2015 6:29:41 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: ebb tide; RnMomof7
Eternal assurance is an illogical position for the same reason that sola fides is illogical – it denies free will and the very existence of sin. If one is eternally assured of salvation after stepping into some “group” of the saved, then what does it matter if we sin?

Free will doesn't exist.

Human being do NOT have free will. Until we are redeemed, we are slaves to sin to serve that. No human being is a completely free independent agent. Only God can claim that.

And no one is eternally assured of salvation by *stepping into some group*, but rather when the INDIVIDUAL turns to Christ and trusts HIM, the Holy Spirit is deposited into that person's life and is the seal, the deposit, the guarantee of salvation. Associating or affiliating with a *group* does NOTHING to save anyone.

Salvation is not a group thing, it's an individual thing. God doesn't save churches, He saves people.

The sin of presumption is the name given to the belief in eternal assurance; it is presuming on God’s mercy. It is not just a theologically incorrect position to hold, but is also one which is a sin because it makes one proud and think that one has no need of God’s further assistance. The person thinks they are already permanently “saved” and so they do not need God, the Church or anything else.

That sounds like the sin of assumption. Not one person who is saved thinks that they don't need God any more because they are secure in the promises that God made to them.

People sin all the time and they choose to sin all the time, even saved people, sealed by the Holy Spirit.

We're not perfect. We can't be perfect. God doesn't expect us to be perfect.

647 posted on 05/31/2015 6:37:30 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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