Posted on 05/22/2015 4:54:44 PM PDT by OK Sun
I have been taught Dispensationalism from my mother’s womb. I was born in a dispensational environment. It was assumed at my church to be a part of the Gospel. There was never another option presented. It made sense. It helped me put together the Scriptures in a way that cleared up so much confusion. And, to be honest, the emphasis on the coming tribulation, current events that prove the Bible’s prophecy, the fear that the Antichrist may be alive today (who is he?) was all quite exciting. But what might be the biggest attraction for me is the charts! Oh how I love charts. I think in charts. And dispensationalism is a theology of charts!
The first time I came across someone who was not a Dispensationalist was in 1999. I am not kidding. It was the first time! I don’t think I even knew if there was another view. It was when I was a student at Dallas Theological Seminary (the bastion of Dispensationalism) and I was swimming with some guys who were at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Once they discovered I was a dispensationalist, they giggled and snickered. They made fun of the rapture, the sacrificial system during the millennium, and the mark of the beast (which, at that time, was some type of barcode). It was as if they patted me on the head and said “It’s okay . . . nice little dispensationalist.” I was so angry. I was humiliated. I was a second-rate theologian. They were “Covenantalists” (whatever that was). But they were the cool guys who believed in the historic Christian faith and I was the cultural Christian, believing in novel ideas.
(Excerpt) Read more at reclaimingthemind.org ...
I apologize for the typos ... tired old fingers don’tchaknow.
I don't believe Jesus ever taught that water baptism is required to be saved.
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.
He did not say failing to be baptized with water would condemn the individual. It is a question of belief/faith. The other point to emphasize is baptism is done after someone believes. Infants who can't even count their toes have no way of believing.
Concerning repentance it has never been omitted from the Gospel of Grace. If you don't recognize your fallen state and your need for a savior how can you have faith that Jesus Christ paid for your sins. Repentance is remorse or contrition for past conduct or sin (according to the American Heritage dictionary).
I think Jesus told the Apostles the answer to this question.
Matt. 16:18...on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
During the period Jesus was buried he proclaimed victory to those in Abraham's Bosom (paradise) and the gates of Hades could not stop Him.
Eph. 4:9 Now this, "He ascended"-what does it mean but that He also first decended into the lower parts of the earth?
IOW, prior to the cross those that had faith were in Abraham's Bosom. When Jesus proclaimed victory that faith was perfected in Him.
"Moreover, brethren , I declare unto you THE GOSPEL which I PREACHED unto you, which also YE HAVE RECEIVED, and wherein ye stand; by which also YE ARE SAVED, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS, according to the scriptures; and that HE WAS BURIED, and that HE ROSE AGAIN the third day according to the scriptures." 1 Cor. 15:1-4.
How is someone saved today? These two passages of Scripture clearly tell us: 1) We are saved by grace (that is God doing whatever HE wants, even though we might not deserve it) through faith. 2). It IS a gift. 3)It is NOT of works (doing something and expecting something in return. 4). The gospel saves. 5). The gospel is: CHRIST DIED FOR OUR SINS, HE WAS BURIED< AND HE ROSE AGAIN.
We have eternal life through Jesus Christ because, by His faith in God to raise Him from the dead, He was willing to die for our sins. If I believe in Him and what He has done for me (He died for my sins, was buried, and rose again) I stand JUSTIFIED before God (having no sin because Jesus took my sin, and I am justified because of the faith of Jesus Christ).
If Jesus Christ is to be my Savior, I must acknowledge Him as such and believe that what He did was for me.
There has not been a Scripture listed that has said, or implied that a person would have to "walk down an isle for Jesus", or "pray through until you receive the victory", or "say you were sorry for your sin". Scripture, and the gospel of the grace of God, in particular, only says that a person must acknowledge he is a sinner. We are saved, not by what WE do, but by what Christ DID for us. I do not see a single word of repentance in the gospel of the grace of God. In the kingdom gospel, yes. But read the gospel that Paul calls "my gospel", given to him from Christ to preach. 1 Cor. 15:1-4. Just the need to acknowledge that I am a sinner and Christ died for my sins. A person may weep when he realizes the work of Christ on his behalf, he may jump for joy, but neither of those count a bit for his salvation. It's not about how we react to the good news, it's about how we view the news.
Right. But they did not have faith in Christ per se, they had faith in what God told them would make them righteous before Him. They did not know the end result of their faith in what God instructed them until Christ went and preached victory in Abraham’s Bosom.
Nah...Peter knew nothing of the gospel of the grace of God...Peter knew nothing of the Gentile church....
Peter was preaching the gospel of the kingdom of Heaven...To Jews...He was preaching the 'restoration of all things', not the formation of the church as we know it...
Peter and the apostles were under the law...They were looking for their Messiah to return from heaven to set up and physically rule his Kingdom in Jerusalem, without any knowledge of a gentile church...
There is no salvation by grace thru faith in Peter's/Jesus' gospel...That wasn't revealed to anyone til after the Jews rejected their Messiah and the promise was given to the Gentiles...
Peter was preaching a physical kingdom...Paul taught a spiritual kingdom...
Jesus taught that if you repent and are baptized (in water) you would have a place in this physical kingdom...
That may be very true NOW. However, that was not always the case with Dispensationalists.
Below is an excerpt from the Fundamental Baptists which favors dispensationalism. They note how Scofield and Chaffer both "gave the impression" of different salvation methods. However, as explained in the article, the author believes they were misunderstood.
A related problem is that Lewis Sperry Chafer, a leading early dispensationalist, gives the impression that the dispensation of Law was a forsaking of a previous plateau of grace, a reversal in the progress of the dispensations. “When the Law was proposed, the children of Israel deliberately forsook their position under the grace of God which had been their relationship to God until that day, and placed themselves under the law.”[v] The implication is that the Old Testament saint was under grace until Moses, under law until Christ, and the New Testament saint is now again under grace.
It should be noted that some dispensationalist here have suggested that salvation in the OT came by works of the law. Some believe the Jews now to be under a special dispensation, that God somehow loves Israel.
I don't see anything that indicates Peter or the others knew that Jesus died as the sacrifice for our sins...
I think one of the issues of confusion is that baptism is often seen as being a work and that if that is a requirement for salvation, then one is not trusting Christ alone for salvation, but Christ and baptism.
**I don’t believe Jesus ever taught that water baptism is required to be saved.**
Is it not right to believe on the Lord as HE instructs us to believe on him? He gives very explicit instructions in being born again, beginning with John 3:5-8. Then, at the end of the Gospels, we read his words of commission to his apostles.
Matt. 28:19; the Lord commanded that THEY baptize souls.
Mark 16:16; The Lord commanded to his disciples that one must believe and be baptized.
Luke 24:47; The Lord commanded that repentance and remission of sins are to be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
John 20:23; The Lord commanded that whose soever sins YE remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins YE retain, they are retained.
Then following those commands, the apostles preached Jesus Christ, commanding repentance, and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and receiving the Holy Ghost.
Jesus has made it quite clear that if you want his blood on you, you must be ‘buried’ in his name.
In Acts 2:37 (Jews) we find convicted souls asking, “what shall we do?”
The ‘wide way’ answer seems to be, “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved”. But no details, such as HOW to believe, contrary to what the Lord and his apostles specifically commanded.
2:38; “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. (note the position of the commas in the KJV.)
Now I will list the separate DETAILED accounts of water baptism:
8:12,13 (Samaritans) “But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women. Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip...”.
Notice they ‘believed, and were baptized’. (sounds like fulfillment of the the Lord’s command in Mark 16:16; “He that believeth, and is baptized..”). They had NOT received the Spirit yet. Peter and John were then called to come to Samaria:
8:16; “(For as yet he was fallen upon NONE of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)”
The Ethiopian eunuch: 8:35-38; “Then Philip....preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See here is WATER; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down INTO the WATER, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.” (first detailed witness mentioning water used in baptism).
10:46,47,48 (Gentiles) “...Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid WATER, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the NAME of the Lord...”. (care to guess what that name is?)
AND, remember these words of Peter: “Can any man forbid water..”. That is the second detailed witness mentioning water baptism).
In Acts 11 we find Peter back in Jerusalem, after the conversion event at Cornelius’ house in Caesarea, testifying of their receiving the Holy Ghost. With God giving them the Spirit, his hand was forced to obey God’s ordained plan, and baptize them in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. Notice his testamony at that point:
11:17; “Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; WHAT WAS I, THAT I COULD WITHSTAND GOD?”.
God expected Peter to do HIS part, and baptise them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission sins. Peter HAD to do it, for it was required by God.
Under your ‘no works’ opinion, those souls were completely born again after the Spirit fell, so Peter had NOTHING to withstand. Also, he could have refused to baptize them. But knew he couldn’t withstand God’s command, for notice his words; “Can any man forbid water..”.
Re-baptism in Ephesus: 19:5,6 “When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul laid his hands on them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.” (OOPS! Paul baptized ‘about twelve’ people, when he ‘wasn’t sent to baptize’. /sarc.)
1Cor. 1:17 is a declaration by Paul, telling us that his ministry was not just baptism. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have baptized ANYBODY!)
Now, the list of the brief mentioning of baptisms. You may argue that those are ‘Spirit’ baptisms only. Can you prove that? I say they are water baptisms, or both (and Paul is involved in all but the first of them):
Acts 2:41 about 3,000 were added.
9:18 Saul/Paul’s conversion.
16:15 Lydia and her household.
16:33 keeper of the prison and his household.
18:8 Crispus (one of several Paul admitted to baptizing in Corinth. 1Cor 1:14,16)
22:16 Saul/Paul again.
Now, the references to baptism in the epistles, which were written to those already born again (note the intro to those letters; ‘brethern’, ‘faithful’, ‘saints’, etc. Like it or not, that’s the context).
Romans 6:3; “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?”
4. “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:....” (That’s certainly not Spirit baptism, because the Spirit is life.) “..that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the GLORY of the FATHER, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
5 “For if we have been planted together in the LIKENESS of his death, we shall be also in the LIKENESS of his resurrection.”
Col. 2:12 is quite similar: “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the operation of God, who raised him from the dead.”
Buried,...planted.....That sure is clear to me: Paul is referring to water baptism, and Spirit baptism, as separate events, and that both are required.
1Cor. 1:12-17
Now is as good of a time as any to address the inconsistancies of the ‘water baptism is not essential’ folks, which I will call the ‘discount crowd’:
When faced with passages that mention baptism, but don’t specifically say that it was water baptism, the discount crowd will say it’s not talking about water baptism. But, when faced with the passage in 1Cor. 1:12-17, then they wholehearted agree that it is referring to water baptism.
(I have just taken the afore mentioned Acts 18:8 (Crispus), and solidly put that passage in the water baptism category.)
Then there is the emphasis on the name, which Paul makes clear to be Jesus: 1Cor. 1:13 “Is CHRIST divided? was PAUL crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the NAME of Paul?”
(Yes, Paul baptized in water at Corinth, in the name of Jesus.)
But then the discount crowd totally disses baptism at times, using the “..Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel..”; when Paul JUST got done admitting to baptizing several souls. Oh consistancy, though art a jewel.
Heb. 6:1-3 is written to those born again: “Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on to perfection: not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgement. And this we will do if God permit.”
(Notice the ‘doctine of baptisms’ is plural?)
1Peter is also written to born again souls. Look at 1:2, “Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto OBEDIENCE and SPRINKLING of the blood of Jesus Christ...”.
1Peter 3:20,21 is quite plain, if you are willing to allow it to harmonize with everything presented so far. 20 “...eight souls were saved by water.” 21 “The LIKE figure whereunto even BAPTISM doth also now save us (not the butting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God.) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.”
Water baptism is not a bath, but is done in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins. That is how it saves. That is how one has the answer of a good conscience toward God. Being “buried with him” is where you get his blood on you, but his NAME must not be left out.
If there is no resurrection, then water baptism is a waste of time. “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?” 1Cor 15:29.
That’s Paul (the one who wasn’t suppose to baptize), saying that if Christ (and the asleep in Christ) rise not, then it is all vain. Of course, we know that is not the case, since Christ is risen, and the Spirit poured out.
Being born again requires obedience, which is NOT ‘our OWN works’. As Paul said to the saints in Rome:
“But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but have OBEYED from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being THEN made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.” Rom. 6:17,18
**Those who are saved, from the beginning of this earth, are saved by grace through faith.**
Faith that God exists?.....or that, not only does God exist, but he has laid out something for me to do in faith:
Present a better sacrifice.
Please God.
Build an ark.
Leave Haran.
Give birth (even if you are an old woman, and doubt it could happen).
etc.
Moses believed God, but didn’t want the job.
**This is where I most strongly disagree with the Dispensationalists-that people were saved in various modes in each dispensation.**
God has given a LOT of different commands since Adam. WHICH of them were not needed? Which of them had nothing to do with faith?
You’ve been very busy while I’ve been away jamming gears. I’ve got a lot of catching up to do on your posts.
God bless
I think it was absolutely necessary under the kingdom gospel. “Repent and be baptized for the remission of sins” sounds pretty clear. If a person desired salvation then, all he could do was what was demanded: repent and be baptized. Fortunately, thankfully, we are not under the law, but grace. :)
God didn't tell us what year it happened...But one can easily see it in Romans 3...
The book of Acts is a book of transition...It's a transition from Israel to the church...From the law to grace...
Gal 2:1 Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and took Titus with me also.
Gal 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run, or had run, in vain.
About 18 years or so after Jesus was crucified, Paul went to Jerusalem where the Apostles had made their home and preached the gosple that he taught the Gentiles...What had they been hearing from the Jewish Apostles for the last 18 years???
Act 21:18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
Act 21:19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
Act 21:20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
Act 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
Whoah...This is about 8 years after the last meeting in Jerusalem...The Jewish believer are STILL under the law, or trying to be...THAT is not the gospel that Paul was teaching...THAT was the gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven that Peter was teaching...
...and meanwhile Paul had been receiving visionS and revelationS from the risen Christ. Plural.
No...Those things in the epistles of Peter were not revealed to Peter at Pentecost...
Absolutely...
I think you are right.
WHAT rock?
He was ordained in “The Way International” and married in a Karaite wedding. CONNECTED!
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