Posted on 04/28/2015 8:36:56 AM PDT by RnMomof7
It’s a question that requires little thought to answer; are you infallible? It ranks right up there with, “Are you God?” But to Catholic apologists the question is quite serious; that’s because they believe that there is a man on earth who, on the subject of faith and morals, is infallible; they call him, “holy father.” See, it does rank right up there with, “Are you God,” at least when coming from people who think their leader is equal with God on deciding issues of faith and morals.
According to Catholic apologist, John Martignoni, this question should cause Protestants to suddenly doubt everything they believe, and Catholics should take comfort in knowing they and only they, have an infallible leader here on earth. But how can they know? Is there one Catholic person out there, besides the pope of course, who will confess to being infallible? And if a Catholic is not infallible, how can he or she “know” their pope is infallible? They can’t! So if they cannot infallibly declare their pope to be infallible, then their assertion is nothing more than a fallible opinion. And if they are wrong, which my fallible counter-assertion says they are, then they are being deceived.
The logic that so often accompanies claims of papal infallibility goes something like this: “Jesus did not leave His people vulnerable to the doctrinal whims of competing leaders.”
The logic used is quite revealing; it indicates very strongly that those who use it have no idea what it means to have the gift of the Holy Spirit, because if they had the gift of the Holy Spirit they would not be looking to Rome for infallible direction. It also reveals that they think everyone else is like them, wanting to follow the whims of their leaders. It also denies the notion that Christ has relationship with man through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Their magisterium reserves that privilege for themselves and people buy into it. It’s no different than Mormons following their prophet in Utah.
The pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church, but the Apostle Paul explicitly said that Christ is the head of His Church and He reconciles all things to Himself. To wit, Catholics will be quick to agree that Christ is the head, but then immediately contradict themselves by saying, “but He established the papacy through which He reveals His truths .” Based on what? If Christ is the head and we are the body, where does the papacy fit in? I see no evidence of this claim in Scripture or history, so if the evidence is not there the papacy must belong to a different body; one that is not associated with Christ and His church.
In his newsletter on his website where he shares chapter one of his new book, “Blue Collar Apologetics,” John Martignoni instructs his faithful followers to establish the fact that Protestants are not infallible early on in discussions with them. The purpose of doing this is to attempt to convince the Protestant that he could be wrong about what he believes. The funny thing is Martignoni never tells his readers what to do if the Protestant turns the question back on them; and that is most certainly what is likely to happen.
Does Martignoni really not see this coming, or is he simply at a loss for how to address it? Once a Catholic apologist is faced with admitting their own fallibility, they will immediately be forced to deal with the realization that their claim of papal infallibility is itself a fallible opinion; so they must, therefore, admit that they could be wrong as well. And once they realize the playing field is level, the evidence will do the talking.
A Catholic apologist who is willing to concede that his belief regarding papal infallibility is nothing more than a fallible opinion will likely ask another similar question, “What church do you belong to and how old is it?” In their minds this is the true “gotcha” question. They believe, in their fallible opinions of course, that they belong to the church founded by Christ nearly 2000 years ago. But the fact is, and yes it is a fact, there was no Roman Catholic Church 2000 years ago; it took a few hundred years for that to develop. Furthermore, by their own admission, the doctrines they hold equal in authority to the Bible, which they call “sacred traditions,” did not exist at the time of the apostles; that also is a fact.
There is something, however, that is clearly older than any Protestant or Roman Catholic Church and that is the written books of the Bible. If a person bases his or her faith on these written works then no supposed authority that came later can undermine the power of God working through them. It is unfortunate that when a person comes to Christ in faith through reading the Bible, that there are so-called Christians who come along to cast doubt in their minds. For example, in a tract on the Catholic Answers website called, “By What Authority,” it is stated, “In fact, not one book of the Bible was written for non-believers.”
Not according to the Apostle John who explicitly wrote, “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name”? He did not say these are written because you believe; he said, these are written that you may believe. John’s gospel is a firsthand written testimony of the ministry of Jesus for the purpose of bringing people to Him, and Catholic apologists are telling us it was never John’s intention for us to become believers by reading it? Amazing; isn’t it? The Catholic Answers philosophy seems to be to make up facts rather than face them.
So for the sake of the next John Martignoni disciple who wants to ask me if I am infallible, the answer is no; and incidentally your answer to my identical question is also no. Thus I am not interested in your fallible opinion that your pope is infallible when speaking on faith and morals. Perhaps one of you can go tell Mr. Martignoni that chapter his one is incomplete, and that he might want to consider adding a realistic response to his question rather than a bunch of scenarios where the Protestant is simply dumbfounded. His current scenarios might have been fun for him to write, but they are only going to embarrass his readers when they go out armed with the Martignoni sword.
“The protestant “reformation” is simply not Biblical”
Wait, I thought we were not supposed to rely on the Bible. But putting that aside, what is not Biblical was the Catholic church circa 500 years ago.
At times it was engaged in military combat, horrendous unChristlike abuse of heretics, selling absolution, etc.
It was no better than any other monarchy in Europe.
I absolutely do not hand that evil behavior to today’s Catholic church, and consider them Christian bretheren today. I do not agree with some of their doctrines, but I expect to see them in heaven.
Just as it would be retarded to blame a modern German for the 3rd reich, it would be even more idiotic to blame the catholic for the acts of the criminals that ran the church 5 centuries ago.
Likewise, its merely an embarrassment to see someone today stand in solidarty with those monsters. The tormenters of the innocent murdered people of the Salem witch trials were protestant. I have never heard a protestant church defend those monsters. But oddly, I see RCC members robustly defend the persecution of Galileo, the inquistions, papal warfare complete with armies, etc.
I sense that RCC members fear that admitting those were utter crimes would somehow assail infallibility and RCC legitimacy as a Christian faith today.
That’s just my take on it.
Yes, the church of Rome did need a reformation. Thank god there was one. And even that did not go far enough in returning us to a more Christ-like church. It was only a beginning. Luther did Christianity a service, but his thought wasn’t the “end all” solution. I think many of his fans today would be freaked out to know how he would view them. He would think many Christians today were in as deep of error as the Roman church was then. That’s just an indisputable fact. I suspect he would see protestant TV evangelist money grubbing as rather familiar. It has been the work of centuries to return Christianity to something resembling Christ. And the work is still not done.
SO I would tell my fellow modern protestants to drop the mantle of superiority of the RCC by comparing themselves to circa 1517. And I would tell my Catholic bretheren that the evil men that ran the church back then do not impart any taint to you or the modern Catholic church, so you only become foolish in reflexive defenses of them.
This is my fatwa
Well stated.
dear resettozero,
there are 4 of me, within a 10 mile radius of my home!
I am not dead, yet.
Lastly, was the one you knew, named after a 1950’s doll???
My remarks were directed at your crappy personal attack towards another FReeper of good standing.
Do you know how to diagram a sentence? If so, do it here. That will answer your first two questions.
Where does this or any Scripture in the Holy Bible say the Roman Catholic church is the Church of the living God?
1) Where did Jesus give instructions that the Christian faith should be based exclusively on a book?
2) Where did Jesus tell His apostles to write anything down and compile it into an authoritative book?
3) Where in the New Testament do the apostles tell future generations that the Christian faith will be based solely on a book?
Interesting article. Protestants object to a number of Catholic beliefs.
1. The praying to/worship of Mary, which is idolatrous. If I understand it correctly, they must pray to Mary because Christ won’t deny her anything, and Christ has God’s ear. But it doesn’t appear here that she had any special hold over Him.
Mat 12:46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.
Mat 12:47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
Mat 12:48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
Mat 12:49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
2. Calling men “father” as an honorific.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
3. Hail Mary’s or other repetitious prayers.
Mat 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
4. Catholic tradition that countermands/supersedes God’s Word.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Etc.
That last one, tradition countermanding/superseding God’s Word, is how Mary can be worshiped, how men can be called “father,” and how vain repetitions can be prayed. Significantly, all these passages denying these things are Christ’s own words.
“Because they keep going to made-up churches, believing made-up traditions of men”
In math, the first thing you do to check your work is to look, and see if your solution even makes sense. If you divided 24 by 8.1, and arrived at an answer of 2962. You know that you have made an error.
If I look at every known fact, word spoken by, and behavior of Jesus, and contrast that with the reality of a medieval church with extravagant buildings, a monarch indistinguishable from a king, military formations, willingness to torture and kill heretics, to demand money for absolution, etc,,,,
Then it becomes obvious that they did not represent Christ’s work back then. Today, I think they are on the good path, as are most protestants.
But the hard cold fact is that the RCC of 1517 was a monument to the made up traditions of men.
Your post is the reason why FR needs a like button.
Typical strident response of an RC on FR.
The Holy Bible is the recorded Word of God. Everything else is man’s erroneous addition and subtraction of the Truth, personified in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Everything else that is not in agreement with the written Word of God and confirmed by the Holy Spirit indwelling every believer in Christ...everything else is subject to doubt and questioning. That includes all the tenets of the RC sect, as is done regularly on FR RF.
NO,,, no!! There was only ONE Terry L Smith in America! Why are you impersonating the only one!? I bet you even introduce yourself that way. Have you no shame? And don’t try to weasel out of this, Smith isn’t that common of a name! (do I really need it? ///)
The men of the Church are weak and sinners. Peter denied Christ.
But we have Christ’s promise that His Church will always teach the Truth:
“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18
“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13
“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15
So if the Church of Scripture is not the Church of Peter and his successors, what church is it?
And as a bonus question, Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible?
Thanks.
Amen.
Where is that tradition of man in the Bible? The Bible never says that of itself. If I missed it, please cite Chapter and verse. Why do you follow that made up belief if it is not in Scripture?
And as a bonus question, Where in the Bible do we find an inspired and infallible list of books that should belong in the Bible?
You are right. Thanks.
But when Christ says, "This IS my Body" many times in Scripture, you don't believe it. Amazing.
Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians:not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”
–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391
Here are a few Scriptural justifications for looking first to the Word of God and not to a religious man-made strongholds of imagination...
2 Timothy 3:16 ESV
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
Romans 15:4
For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.
Isaiah 40:8
The grass withers, the flower fades, but the word of our God will stand forever.
2 Peter 1:21
For no prophecy was ever produced by the will of man, but men spoke from God as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.
Hebrews 4:12
For the word of God is living and active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of soul and of spirit, of joints and of marrow, and discerning the thoughts and intentions of the heart.
Deuteronomy 4:2
You shall not add to the word that I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God that I command you.
John 5:39 ESV
You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness about me,
1 Thessalonians 2:13
And we also thank God constantly for this, that when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of God, which is at work in you believers.
Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
Deuteronomy 12:32
“Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do. You shall not add to it or take from it.
Luke 8:11 ESV
Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
1 Peter 1:25 ESV
But the word of the Lord remains forever.” And this word is the good news that was preached to you.
John 1:14 ESV
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Deuteronomy 8:3 ESV
And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord.
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture comes from someone’s own interpretation.
Matthew 22:29 ESV / 11 helpful votes
But Jesus answered them, “You are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God.
Psalm 119:11 ESV
I have stored up your word in my heart, that I might not sin against you.
Isaiah 55:10-11
“For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven and do not return there but water the earth, making it bring forth and sprout, giving seed to the sower and bread to the eater, so shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
Revelation 22:18-19
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.
Joshua 1:8 ESV
This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success.
John 12:47-48 ESV
If anyone hears my words and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world. The one who rejects me and does not receive my words has a judge; the word that I have spoken will judge him on the last day.
James 1:21
Therefore put away all filthiness and rampant wickedness and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
John 17:17 ESV
Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
John 6:63 ESV
It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Matthew 5:18 ESV
For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.
Isaiah 28:13 ESV
And the word of the Lord will be to them precept upon precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little, that they may go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
Proverbs 30:5-6 ESV
Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.
1 John 1:3 ESV
That which we have seen and heard we proclaim also to you, so that you too may have fellowship with us; and indeed our fellowship is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.
2 Peter 3:15-16
And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.
2 Peter 1:3-4
His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.
John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
Isaiah 55:11
So shall my word be that goes out from my mouth; it shall not return to me empty, but it shall accomplish that which I purpose, and shall succeed in the thing for which I sent it.
John 10:35 ESV
If he called them gods to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be broken—
Jeremiah 23:29
Is not my word like fire, declares the Lord, and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?
Psalm 119:6 ESV
Then I shall not be put to shame, having my eyes fixed on all your commandments.
Psalm 19:7-11
The law of the Lord is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple; the precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes; the fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the rules of the Lord are true, and righteous altogether. More to be desired are they than gold, even much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover, by them is your servant warned; in keeping them there is great reward.
Psalm 119:10
With my whole heart I seek you; let me not wander from your commandments!
Psalm 40:8 ESV
I delight to do your will, O my God; your law is within my heart.”
Not one of those verses answers the specific question I asked, your man-made belief. You can say "It is Written!" over and over, but it doesn't answer the specific question.
And let's talk about Timothy.
But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. 16 2 Tim 3:14-15
Now lets look at context and reality:
1. This was written to Timothy
2. Timothy was born in 17 AD
Therefore, the Scripture Paul is referring to is The Old Testament
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