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Are you infallible?
One Fold ^ | December 10, 2013 | Brian Culliton

Posted on 04/28/2015 8:36:56 AM PDT by RnMomof7

It’s a question that requires little thought to answer; are you infallible? It ranks right up there with, “Are you God?” But to Catholic apologists the question is quite serious; that’s because they believe that there is a man on earth who, on the subject of faith and morals, is infallible; they call him, “holy father.” See, it does rank right up there with, “Are you God,” at least when coming from people who think their leader is equal with God on deciding issues of faith and morals.

According to Catholic apologist, John Martignoni, this question should cause Protestants to suddenly doubt everything they believe, and Catholics should take comfort in knowing they and only they, have an infallible leader here on earth. But how can they know? Is there one Catholic person out there, besides the pope of course, who will confess to being infallible? And if a Catholic is not infallible, how can he or she “know” their pope is infallible? They can’t! So if they cannot infallibly declare their pope to be infallible, then their assertion is nothing more than a fallible opinion. And if they are wrong, which my fallible counter-assertion says they are, then they are being deceived.

The logic that so often accompanies claims of papal infallibility goes something like this: “Jesus did not leave His people vulnerable to the doctrinal whims of competing leaders.”

The logic used is quite revealing; it indicates very strongly that those who use it have no idea what it means to have the gift of the Holy Spirit, because if they had the gift of the Holy Spirit they would not be looking to Rome for infallible direction. It also reveals that they think everyone else is like them, wanting to follow the whims of their leaders. It also denies the notion that Christ has relationship with man through the gift of the Holy Spirit. Their magisterium reserves that privilege for themselves and people buy into it. It’s no different than Mormons following their prophet in Utah.

The pope is the head of the Roman Catholic Church, but the Apostle Paul explicitly said that Christ is the head of His Church and He reconciles all things to Himself. To wit, Catholics will be quick to agree that Christ is the head, but then immediately contradict themselves by saying, “but He established the papacy through which He reveals His truths .” Based on what? If Christ is the head and we are the body, where does the papacy fit in? I see no evidence of this claim in Scripture or history, so if the evidence is not there the papacy must belong to a different body; one that is not associated with Christ and His church.


In his newsletter on his website where he shares chapter one of his new book, “Blue Collar Apologetics,” John Martignoni instructs his faithful followers to establish the fact that Protestants are not infallible early on in discussions with them. The purpose of doing this is to attempt to convince the Protestant that he could be wrong about what he believes. The funny thing is Martignoni never tells his readers what to do if the Protestant turns the question back on them; and that is most certainly what is likely to happen.

Does Martignoni really not see this coming, or is he simply at a loss for how to address it? Once a Catholic apologist is faced with admitting their own fallibility, they will immediately be forced to deal with the realization that their claim of papal infallibility is itself a fallible opinion; so they must, therefore, admit that they could be wrong as well. And once they realize the playing field is level, the evidence will do the talking.

A Catholic apologist who is willing to concede that his belief regarding papal infallibility is nothing more than a fallible opinion will likely ask another similar question, “What church do you belong to and how old is it?” In their minds this is the true “gotcha” question. They believe, in their fallible opinions of course, that they belong to the church founded by Christ nearly 2000 years ago. But the fact is, and yes it is a fact, there was no Roman Catholic Church 2000 years ago; it took a few hundred years for that to develop. Furthermore, by their own admission, the doctrines they hold equal in authority to the Bible, which they call “sacred traditions,” did not exist at the time of the apostles; that also is a fact.

There is something, however, that is clearly older than any Protestant or Roman Catholic Church and that is the written books of the Bible. If a person bases his or her faith on these written works then no supposed authority that came later can undermine the power of God working through them. It is unfortunate that when a person comes to Christ in faith through reading the Bible, that there are so-called Christians who come along to cast doubt in their minds. For example, in a tract on the Catholic Answers website called, “By What Authority,” it is stated, “In fact, not one book of the Bible was written for non-believers.”

Not according to the Apostle John who explicitly wrote, “These are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name”? He did not say these are written because you believe; he said, these are written that you may believe. John’s gospel is a firsthand written testimony of the ministry of Jesus for the purpose of bringing people to Him, and Catholic apologists are telling us it was never John’s intention for us to become believers by reading it? Amazing; isn’t it? The Catholic Answers philosophy seems to be to make up facts rather than face them.

So for the sake of the next John Martignoni disciple who wants to ask me if I am infallible, the answer is no; and incidentally your answer to my identical question is also no. Thus I am not interested in your fallible opinion that your pope is infallible when speaking on faith and morals. Perhaps one of you can go tell Mr. Martignoni that chapter his one is incomplete, and that he might want to consider adding a realistic response to his question rather than a bunch of scenarios where the Protestant is simply dumbfounded. His current scenarios might have been fun for him to write, but they are only going to embarrass his readers when they go out armed with the Martignoni sword.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: holyspirit; magisterium; pope; rome
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To: RnMomof7

Keep up the good work mom.


221 posted on 04/28/2015 5:32:07 PM PDT by Mark17 (Beyond the sunset, O blissful morning, when with our Savior, Heaven is begun. Earth's toiling ended)
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To: Resettozero
Try Salt Lake City. They'll be glad to answer you with an answer you can accept carnally.

When you can't answer a question, obfuscate.

Answer the question asked.

222 posted on 04/28/2015 5:32:11 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: Resettozero
The same Scripture that says the Roman Catholic church either is or will become the One True Church.

uh, no.

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15

223 posted on 04/28/2015 5:33:49 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive
Answer the question asked.

Demanding kind of FReeper aren't you. Someone on this thread is blind to the multitude of times he has been given Scriptural answers repeatedly to this...this whatever it is.
224 posted on 04/28/2015 5:35:35 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: CynicalBear
Please prove that what the Catholic Church teaches today as "tradition" is exactly what the apostles taught as "tradition".

We have Christ's promise that it will

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” Mat 6:18

“I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.” John 16:12-13

“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15

225 posted on 04/28/2015 5:36:06 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: Mark17

She is doing a great job, isn’t she?


226 posted on 04/28/2015 5:39:27 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: MamaB

Indeed.


227 posted on 04/28/2015 5:40:49 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: FatherofFive; Resettozero
>>Which Church?<<

It was the local ekklesia they met with. The Catholic concept of "church" is unknown in scripture.

228 posted on 04/28/2015 5:41:05 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: FatherofFive

I do not think you should keep on badgering posters on here. That’s not a nice.


229 posted on 04/28/2015 5:41:35 PM PDT by MamaB
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To: smvoice
What a cute little Self Satisfied response, absolutely true to faith in Self and Self Alone making ones Self equal to Christ and able to see into the hearts of others !!

I'm not the least bit worried about hearing, "I never knew you", from Jesus Christ but I'm positive those who in word and deed pretend they are His equal should be.

230 posted on 04/28/2015 5:42:16 PM PDT by Rashputin (Jesus Christ doesn't evacuate His troops, He leads them to victory.)
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To: MamaB

You mean Catholics. God’s Other Chosen People.


231 posted on 04/28/2015 5:42:18 PM PDT by Regal
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To: Salvation
>>If Barnabas and Paul could belong to a Church<<

They didn't belong to a "church". They were members of and ekklesia. The Catholic concept of "church" doesn't exist in scripture.

232 posted on 04/28/2015 5:43:45 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Rashputin
I'm positive those who in word and deed pretend they are His equal should be.

You must be concerned then for the eternal security of your co-redemptrix "Mary".
233 posted on 04/28/2015 5:45:34 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: FatherofFive

That doesn’t work FatherofFive. Each was a separate entity with a separate “candlestick”. No ties to any of the others. Jesus didn’t address one entity and tell that entity to correct it’s subordinates.


234 posted on 04/28/2015 5:46:03 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Rashputin

Or your magisterium.


235 posted on 04/28/2015 5:47:06 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Rashputin

Or your pope.


236 posted on 04/28/2015 5:47:45 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: CynicalBear
It was the local ekklesia they met with. The Catholic concept of "church" is unknown in scripture.

So wrong.

Christ wanted His Church to be one.

“I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas"; still another, "I follow Christ."1Cor 1:10

One. Not many.

Christians cannot be “perfectly united in mind and thought” when they have different beliefs on, say, the necessity of water baptism, while others believe “This is my Body” means “This is a cookie”

God bless in your journey to the truth.

237 posted on 04/28/2015 5:47:49 PM PDT by FatherofFive (Islam is evil and must be eradicated)
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To: FatherofFive
>>They think "This is my body" means this represents my body.<<

Was Christ eating His own flesh and drinking His own blood at the last supper? Did He encourage the apostles to eat blood even though to them it would be breaking the law and sinful?

238 posted on 04/28/2015 5:48:44 PM PDT by CynicalBear (For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
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To: Rashputin

Or your local priest who magically produces the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, supposedly at each mass or eucharist or whenever the priest decides.


239 posted on 04/28/2015 5:49:07 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: CynicalBear

LOL! That quote even has the word “CHURCH” in it. LOL!


240 posted on 04/28/2015 5:50:34 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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