Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
It would if it were admitted.
We have more unity between denominatioal lines as brothers and sisters in Christ, that I see within Catholicism.
That does not include non-believers and the churches they pack.
Their disunity results from them ABANDONING Scripture, not because they follow it.
Nope....only Christianity.
Actually, if anyone wants to state that God created a religion, it would be Judaism when He handed down the Law from Mt Sinai.
Excellent as usual and great questions.
Ping to post 381, which has been saved for posterityand future use with or without the permission of the owner....
:)
Are you Roman Catholic?
Yes?
Proof provided.
Hoss
SR... that is well said.
Hoss
LOL!
The Catholic Church is as man-made as the other denominations of Christianity. The “CHURCH” is born of God via John 6:29, Romans 10:9-10, John 14:6, John 10:9 and a slew of others. The fact that you can’t distinguish the two means you are severely in error.
Excellent question posed! Well we get an answer?
The truth of that post should concern all Catholics.
It is far easier to make Luther a punching bag than to address actual facts.
I agree, and it seems from what I can remember of reading from St Peter that he was not interested in applying authoritative names to himself, obviously following the teaching of Jesus but some where down along the line importance became the big issue.
Affirming agreement with your post and anticipating the response from the prime recipient of your brief epistle.
R2z
Gotta go with ya on this post of yours too, and wonder if the object of your instruction will reply or not.
R2z
That's because we have been born of the Spirit. We have the Spirit of the Living God indwelling us. We are new creatures in Christ, who have been given the mind of Christ.
And so with the old nature the flesh, still there, we struggle, as Paul recounts in Romans 7.
But Romans 8 follows. There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus.
You speak for me on this too, brother.
And I would add that they expect us to kneel and scrape and beg for a salvation that they cannot even guarantee us for all our or their efforts.
Psalm 103:12 As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us.
Yet Satan would convince some that those transgressions will one day be brought before us to convict us or that we must be "purged" in some purgatory.
Teaching for doctrine, the commandments of men. Does that sound familiar? I am glad I am out of that bondage religion. After all, we all know the only true church, is the First United Church of the Navigators. You know the true church that Jesus founded about 4 and 1/2 million years ago. I mean, you want to make sure you belong to the only true church right? 😀😃😄😎👍😂😅😇😁😆😀😀😆 So, join the only true church before it is too late, and don't be unregenerate 😄😃😆😀
SR has given a pretty accurate answer for your question.
I would add though, that this is nothing new. We have in Corinthians the emergence of four "denominations" if you want to call them that, when some were claiming to be "the party of Cephas" or the "party of Apollos" just to name two.
SR is right about the influence of liberal theology impacting the church and causing splits.
However, IMHO, the greatest problem in the church today is that we, the church, are not following the teachings of Christ.
If we all began exhibiting Christ-like manners we would be far more impactful in changing this world.
As my high school coaches used to say after a loss....we need to get back to the basics.
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