Posted on 04/22/2015 2:34:02 PM PDT by RnMomof7
Within Roman Catholicism (and within some other churches as well) there are prayers that are made for, through, and to the dead. We, as Reformed believers, reject all three of these categories but on different grounds. In discussing these issues with Roman Catholics it may be useful to be able to understand the different categories and to explain why it is that we reject each. We should pray for the living, to the living and true God, through the merits and intercession of Christ alone.
1. Prayers For the Dead
In Roman Catholicism, there is a belief in Purgatory. Although Roman Catholics give varying explanations, a popular perception is that purgatory is a place where, through a period of suffering, the soul is purged of sin (it's worth noting that some Roman Catholics today deny that Purgatory is either an actual place or that it has actual time, but we'll leave that for another discussion).
Those within Purgatory want to be purged of their sins (in Roman Catholic theology) but they also want to get out of there and on to heaven. So people are encouraged to pray for the souls of the deceased, for relief/escape from Purgatory. After all, apparently, this suffering can be alleviated through the granting of an indulgence to the person in purgatory.
The Bible, however, teaches that the souls of believers are, at their death made perfect in holiness and do immediately pass into glory. (See Thomas Watson's discussion, for a more detailed discussion.) Given this, prayers for dead believers are useless, since believers are already in heaven.
Furthermore, while certain folks have (from time to time) suggested that salvation is still possible in hell, it is not. Of course, this itself is not normally disputed by Roman Catholics, who recognize that there is no escape from hell itself. Thus, prayers for dead unbelievers are also useless, since unbelievers are already in hell, from which they cannot escape.
Thus, there is no third category - no third option that exists, where prayers for the deceased would have any value. Accordingly, we reject prayers for the dead as vain and superstitious, and we do not engage in such prayers.
2. Prayers To the Dead
In Roman Catholicism there are, from time to time, prayers to the dead. I would be quick to point out Mary, but this doctrine they have of the Assumption of Mary leaves it unclear whether they really consider Mary to be dead or resurrected (although, of course, as a matter of objective fact, she is dead and awaits the resurrection of the faithful). Aside from Mary, however, other saints are sometimes prayed to within Catholicism. One particularly popular saint in English-speaking countries is St. Jude (aka Judas not Iscariot, one of the twelve apostles), the patron saint of lost causes.
We, Reformed Christians, reject such prayers for several reasons. First, there is no reason at all to think that such prayers will be heard and understood by the dead. Second, not only does Scripture not encourage attempted communication with the dead, it condemns such attempts as witchcraft and necromancy. Third, the use of such prayers suggests a lack of faith in the efficacy of prayers directly to the Father. Fourth, the use of such prayers suggests a desire for the mediation of someone other than Christ, an issue that flows over into the next section, below.
This is one of those areas where Roman Catholic apologists are very eager these days to recast the issue in terms like "we're just asking our fellow believers to pray for us, are you saying that's wrong?" The answer to that question is that we do not object to asking fellow believers to pray for us. In fact, we ought to do so. James 5:16 Confess [your] faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
However, while many of the prayers to the dead are explicitly prayers that the dead would hear the person and pray to God for the person, that simply avoids the most grotesque abuses of the practice, such as when things are requested specifically from the saints or Mary, which are not theirs to give (such as success, grace, salvation, etc.). Those prayers (meta-prayers that request prayer by the saint to whom the prayers are offered) suffer from the objections as to the lack of warrant or example from the Scriptures as well as from the apparent view that these saints are to serve as mediators rather than Christ. As this is not a direct answer to the Romanist objections, I won't go on at greater length here.
3. Prayers Through the Dead
Roman Catholics sometimes explicitly, sometimes implicitly, offer up prayers that are through the dead. For example, the "Approved Prayer for the intercession of Pope John Paul II" (link) is a prayer that is not for John Paul II (JP2) or to JP2 but it is through JP2. It is addressed to God, "O Holy Trinity," but it requests that something be granted "Grant us," via the intercession of JP2 "through his intercession ... ."
Other times the request is more indirect. For example, sometimes when Mary (or others) are entreated it is suggested (as a justification) that since "the prayer of a righteous man availeth much" that the more righteous a person is, the more their prayer will avail (although, of course, the Scriptures do not teach such any such formula). Consequently, the idea is that we are asking these creatures to intercede before God on the basis of the merits that are theirs.
The connection between the two can be seen in this prayer to God pleading the merit and intercession of Rita of Cascia:
O God! who didst deign to confer on St. Rita for imitating Thee in love of her enemies, the favor of bearing her heart and brow the marks of Thy Love and Passion, grant we beseech Thee, that through her intercession and merit, we may, pierced by the thorns of compunction, ever contemplate the sufferings of Thy Passion, who livest and reignest forever and ever. Amen.(emphasis added - source)
(emphasis added - source)Prayer to Our Lady of Light
O radiant beam of celestial clarity,
O spotless Mother of infinite purity,
O seat of Wisdom and divine reliquary
of the Word Incarnate,
Hear my prayer,
O Queen of Light!
O Blessed Trinity,
Father, Son, and Holy Spirit,
You glorified my Mother, Mary,
as Queen of heaven and earth
and gave to her the gift of holding
Your Omnipotence in her holy hands,
Graciously grant what I seek
through her merits and intercession.
Amen.
956 The intercession of the saints. "Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness.... They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they proffer the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus.... So by their fraternal concern is our weakness greatly helped."(emphases and elipses in original - footnote omitted - source)
I often wonder why some resort to that fallacy, the undistributed middle. Is God a murderer? No, and when His life comes into your human spirit, His character begins to show forth, which includes not murdering people. To quote a well know source, ‘Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind.’
I really don’t think that’s necessary. Good Christians can discern that pretty readily. The enemy knows scripture VERY well. Thus, it’s not the use of scripture per se. It’s the attitude of the one using that scripture. We all need to check our heart to see what is REALLY motivating us in many situations. If one senses oneself or the other engaging in some sort of a competition to be the one who is RIGHT, that one should immediately back out.
But is everyone transformed in such a way. Or do they still sin?
That’s what I am getting at. We are weak because of our free will. We all sin and all times in our life.
Where and when do we take responsibility for our own actions?
So God is not able to save until the end of the journey, is that what you believe? Are you not familiar with the scripture which points out that the fire will consume the works but by that same fire the person is cleansed? Do you not understand the context of that teaching? It is about works, and behavior after confessing Christ is works. He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us. I don’t need a Priest to do that since I have The Great High Priest as my Savior.
I have a free will. I sin. I have an advocate Who has made a promise and I know of a surety that He will not break His promise. We take responsibility for our own actions when we bow our knee and say Thank You Lord Jesus for Being my Savior. We cannot be worthy of His Grace. We cannot become worthy of His Grace. We can only accept it. Once we accept His Grace, we live by His promises. If you see one who claims to be born again and they are constantly sinning, living as if the Holy Spirit is not in them, you may know that they are none of His.
Greater is He that is in you than He that is in the world. Jesus said 'My sheep hear my voice' ... by the presence of His Spirit within your now alive human spirit you hear His voice. As my Lord, I want to please Him by living through His presence in me. I fail at times, usually where my temper is at issue. But He does not leave me when I make a fool of myself living my way not His. Thanks be to God, He lives in me, so that if I defeat the old man in me it is to His glory not mine, for I cannot of myself do it, only His nature in me can transform what was dead in trespasses and sins yet is now alive forever more because He is Risen and in me as He was in the Father (John 14).
This is one of the most pleasant responses I have received, although I don’t quite agree with all of it.
Thank you so much. Good night.
Pax Vobiscum
Yeah, some Catholic posters are very good at that when they do use scripture.
Yes, Jesus is the Rock. . Isn’t that wonderful? There is a wonderful song about that. We use to sing it a lot in the different churches I have attended over my 71 years. “On Christ, the solid Rock I stand, all other is sinking sand....”
Prsyers offered for you sir.
You are bashing people on this thread by falsely accusing them of bashing you! The OP stated what the bible says in comparison to man made tradition.
Ha! No, I'm not a bible code kind a guy...I was just playing on the statement in post #26 to CynicalBear...
I do however agree with CB in post #62 that Jesus revealed that the O.T. canon was closed long before Jesus showed up and not decades after his Crucifixion, eliminating any connection to the canon with the Catholic religion...
I am fascinated tho by what appears to be something in numerology connected with the scriptures...
I figure I’m keeping good company if we non-Catholics are being compared to the devil.
And that's the same Catholic crew that accused Paul of teaching falsely and called it heresy...
Act 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.
Act 24:14 But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:
I just love that...They considered Paul a heretic for worshiping God and believing the scriptures...
What a farce this is.
Of course we can...It would be good if we were remorseful tho...
Hey, you guys got the same rule...If you commit a mortal sin and confess and repent, you get to go to purgatory, don't you???
Well how could they be when the extra books were not recognized by the Jews or Jesus as scripture?
So there is no correct nor incorrect doctrine to you???And there is no correct nor incorrect gospel???
I have always said the most miserable person on earth, is not the lost, Hell bound sinner, but the born again, saved person who is straying from the straight and narrow, and gotten out of the fellowship that he/she knows they should be in. I have been there. I have gotten out of fellowship, and been under the heavy hand of God, in chastening. It was by far, the worst time in my life, as the Lord had to give a few raps across the knuckles, just to get my attention. It was not a fun time.
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