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Three Things You're Probably Getting Wrong about Praying to the Saints
Shameless popery ^ | April 20, 2015

Posted on 04/20/2015 1:46:59 PM PDT by NYer

As Christianity Today acknowledges, prayers for and to the Saints date back to the early Church (in fact, these practices date back far earlier, even to Old Testament Judaism, but I'll talk more about that tomorrow). Nevertheless, these practices are controversial within Protestantism. Today, I want to look at just one of them -- prayer to the Saints -- and show why the opposition to it is grounded in a faulty view of life after death. Tomorrow, I'll look at the Biblical support for both prayer to the Saints and prayer for the Saints.

First, a word on why Protestants tend to object to prayer to the Saints. For some people, such prayers are sinful, since they think it gives glory to someone other than God, or that it's equivalent to “consulting the dead.” Others view it simply as impossible, since they think that the Saints can't hear us, or are unconcerned with what's going on here below. But almost all of these arguments are built upon the same three misconceptions about the souls of the Saints who have gone before us. Given this, let's present the Biblical view on each of these three major points:

Johann Michael Rottmayr, Intercession of Charles Borromeo supported by the Virgin Mary (1714)
1. The Saints in Heaven are Alive, not Dead.

The first mistake in opposing “prayers to the dead” is assuming that we're praying to “the dead.” One of the most frequently cited passages against prayer to the Saints in Heaven is Isaiah 8:19,
And when they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the wizards who chirp and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
Those who oppose prayer to the Saints present a straightforward argument: the faithful departed are dead, and it's sinful to “consult the dead.”

But the first premise -- that the faithful departed are dead -- is false, and directly contrary to Scripture. Jesus actually denounces this view as Biblically ignorant (Mk. 12:24). He reveals the truth about the Saints when He says, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die” (John 11:25-26). And in response to the Sadduccees, He says (Mark 12:26-27):
And as for the dead being raised, have you not read in the book of Moses, in the passage about the bush, how God said to him, “I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living; you are quite wrong.
So the Protestant view that says that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are “dead” is “quite wrong.”

Read the literature written against prayers to the Saints, and see how frequently they're mischaracterized as “the dead.” This isn't a harmless mistake. The passages warning against “the dead” simply don't apply to the question of the Saints. Indeed, a great many popular assumptions about the afterlife are built on the idea that verses like Psalm 115:17 (“The dead do not praise the LORD, nor do any that go down into the silence”) apply to the Saints in Heaven. They don't, and Christ tells us that they don't.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent (12th c. icon)
2. The Saints in Heaven are Witnesses, not Sleeping or Ignorant.

Related to the first mistake is the idea that the departed Saints are cut off from us on Earth, and that it's therefore immoral (or at least futile) to communicate with them. This belief takes two general forms: first that the souls of the just are “asleep” until the Resurrection; second, that the souls are isolated in Heaven.

First, soul sleep. The United Church of God argues against praying to “dead” saints:
In addition to all this, praying to dead saints today assumes the doctrine of the immortal soul, which many people are surprised to find is not taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that death is like sleep that lasts until the resurrection at Jesus Christ's second coming (1 Thessalonians:4:13-16 ).
Now, United Church of God aren't mainstream Protestants by any stretch: they are Sabbatarians (meaning that they reject Sunday worship) and they reject the Trinity. But this notion of soul sleep can be traced to Martin Luther, who wrote:
For the Christian sleeps in death and in that way enters into life, but the godless departs from life and experiences death forever [...] Hence death is also called in the Scriptures a sleep. For just as he who falls asleep does not know how it happens, and he greets the morning when he awakes, so shall we suddenly arise on the last day, and never know how we entered and passed through death.
Even Luther's most militant supporters concede that he held some sort of confused and often-contradictory notion of “soul sleep.” So, too, did many of the Radical Reformers. In this view, the souls of the Saints aren't “conscious,” and so it would be futile to ask them for prayers.

The second camp rejects soul sleep, but thinks that the souls in Heaven are isolated from us. For example, the website “Just for Catholics” acknowledges that the first half of the Hail Mary comes directly from Scripture, but says that these Scriptures aren't permitted to be used as prayer:
Even though the first two sentences are taken from the Bible, it does not mean that it is right to use them as a prayer. Mary could hear the salutations of the Gabriel and Elizabeth because they spoke in her immediate presence. Now Mary is dead and her soul is in heaven. She cannot hear the prayers of thousands and thousands who constantly call upon her name. Only the all-knowing God can hear the prayers of His people.
But Scripture doesn't present the Saints in Heaven as isolated or spiritually asleep. Rather, even in their “rest,” they're presented as alert and aware of the goings-on of Earth (Revelation 6:9-11):
I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.
Perhaps the clearest description of the relationship between the Saints in Heaven and the saints on Earth is in the Book of Hebrews. Chapter 11 is a litany of Saints who lived by faith, leading immediately into this (Heb. 12:1-2):
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God.
The spiritual life is compared to competing in a race, an image that Paul uses elsewhere (1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Timothy 4:6-7). Here, the imagery is fleshed out to show that the Saints in Heaven are a great crowd of witnesses in the stands. Obviously, this idea of the heavenly Saints as “a crowd of witnesses” is incompatible with the idea that they're either asleep or unavailable to see us.

Matthias Gerung, John's Vision, from the Ottheinrich Bible (1531)
3. The Saints in Heaven are Still Part of the Church.

The Biblical depiction of the Saints as the heavenly witnesses in the grandstands of our spiritual race rebuts a third view: namely, that the Saints are enjoying God's company so much that they've stopped caring about us. For example, a Christian Post column on the subject seems to suggest that the Saints don't do anything for us once they're in Heaven:
So yes, they are not really dead. But that doesn't mean they hear our prayers, or provide even the slightest bit of assistance in answer to our prayers, regardless of how noble their lives may have been while on earth. God doesn't use saints in heaven to bless saints on earth. Instead, God utilizes His holy angels to minister to His children on earth. 
Such a view gets things entirely backwards. Rather, their holiness and their enjoyment of God means that they love us and care for us all the more. That's why they're witnesses to our spiritual race; that's why the martyrs in Heaven are still concerned with justice on Earth. The more we love God, the more we love our neighbor. And the Saints love God with a perfection impossible to us here below.

One way to think about this is to remember the shocking fact that the Saints are still part of the Church. The Bible describeds the Church as both the Body of Christ and the Bride of Christ. For example, St. Paul tells us that the Church is the Body of Christ (Colossians 1:18, 24), and the Body of Christ is the Church (Ephesians 5:23). The Saints aren't somehow cut off from Christ in Heaven, which is why we see the Holy Spirit presenting the Bride of Christ in Heaven (Revelation 21:9, 22:17). That membership in the Church helps to explain their heavenly intercession (1 Corinthians 12:24-26):
But God has so composed the body, giving the greater honor to the inferior part, that there may be no discord in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. If one member of suffers, all suffer together; if one member is honored, all rejoice together.
So both perfect Christian charity and our union in the Body of Christ help to account for why the Saints intercede for us. 

Conclusion

Scripture repeatedly calls for us to pray for one another (e.g., 1 Thessalonians 5:25; 2 Thes. 3:1; Colossians 4:3; Hebrews 13:18), to make “supplications for all the saints” (Ephesians 6:18), and for “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings” to be made “for all men” (1 Timothy 2:1). Neither in praying for one another nor in asking one another for prayers do we risk offending God in the slightest. Quite the contrary: “This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:3-4).

The Catholic position simply applies these Scriptural teaching to the entire Body of Christ, while the standard Protestant position says that these teachings don't apply to the parts of the Church that are already in Heaven. The view goes awry in calling for us to ignore an entire portion of the Body of Christ: urging us not to pray for the faithful departed, and not to ask the Saints in glory to pray for us. Scripture calls for us to “have the same care for one another,” to suffer and triumph with the other parts of the Body. The Saints' glory is ours; our struggles are theirs. 

As you can see from the above post, many of the most popular arguments against praying to the Saints are based on false ideas about what happens to the souls of the just after death: thinking that the Saints are dead, or asleep, or isolated, or apathetic, or outside the Church. In fact, they're alive and before God, yet still connected to us, witnessing our triumphs, failures and struggles, all the while rooting for us and praying for us. 

With a correct view of the state of the glorified Saints and their role in the Church, most of the arguments against seeking their intercession simply dissolve. There's simply no good reason to cut the heavenly Saints off from the rest of the Body. You're surrounded by Heavenly witnesses who are supporting you in your spiritual race. What's more, they're your brothers and sisters in Christ. Given this, by all means, ask for their spiritual help and encouragement!


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian; Mainline Protestant; Other Christian; Prayer
KEYWORDS: prayer; prayerstosaints; praying; saints; venoration
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To: CynicalBear
Do you think people are really stupid or what?

It appears to be a more severe affectation than that. This one's traits may be congenital, if not learned.
501 posted on 04/21/2015 5:21:19 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Eucharista

And catholics are not exempt from that.

They are also depending on their own interpretation of what is truth and they have chosen to throw in their lot with someone else.

Just because they agree with the prepackaged version Rome offers, does not mean it’s any less their interpretation.

It’s their interpretation that Rome and its interpretation is correct.


502 posted on 04/21/2015 5:21:55 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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Comment #503 Removed by Moderator

To: ealgeone

These and many other texts speak in varied ways of Mary as Mediatrix of all graces, so often that the teaching has become infallible.


Thank you for providing this information. It illustrates my point that not every statement from a Catholic is Sacred Tradition. As much as Fr. Most would like, all of the texts that he referenced taken together do not represent infallibility. Mary as Mediatrix of all graces is not a dogma of the Church and there does not appear to be a great desire by the Vatican to make it dogma.


504 posted on 04/21/2015 5:28:51 PM PDT by rwa265
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To: af_vet_1981

I’m sorry, did I say the Bereans had any authority? No I did not. I said that they searched the scriptures daily to see if the things that were said authoritatively were in fact scriptural. Which is exactly what we are called to do. That way we don’t end up believing nonsense spewed from fallible men who are somehow believed to possess truth from outside God’s Word.


505 posted on 04/21/2015 5:31:15 PM PDT by smvoice (There are no prizes given for defending the indefensible.)
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Comment #506 Removed by Moderator

To: Iscool

When we see and hear you guys giving the glory of God to others by asking them to provide only what God can provide, and dedicate your lives to them (Mary) you reveal what’s in your heart for all to see, not just God...


What you think you see and hear is not what is.

Lucem Gentium 60. states: There is but one Mediator as we know from the words of the apostle, “for there is one God and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a redemption for all”.(298) The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. In no way does it impede, but rather does it foster the immediate union of the faithful with Christ.


507 posted on 04/21/2015 5:36:10 PM PDT by rwa265
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To: ealgeone
1. Have you looked at the Litany of Loreto? These titles (Seat of Wisdom, Mirror of Justice) are clearly subordinate: a seat is important only if it holds an important personage; a mirror is useful only to reflect. And they are obviously metaphorical. She's not literally a chair or a reflective piece of glass!

2. You lack context for the papal statements about Mary. To pick out just one example: the quote from Pope Leo's encyclical on the Rosary --- the one that starts out "We constantly seek help from Heaven" --- goes on to say, "[She] has a favor and power with her son greater than any human or angelic creature has ever obtained or ever can gain". Thus this is a "favor and power" derivative from her intercession with her Son.

She is a petitioner, not a potentate!

Pope Leo cited St. Dominic as saying he composed the Rosary "as to recall the mysteries of our salvation in succession": its purpose is to meditate on the salvation obtained for us by Jesus Christ, "the way, the truth, and the life".

That's called "Christocentric".

Pope Leo mentions the trials facing the Church at the time (he was writing in 1883): the attacks on Christian piety, public morality, aggressive agnosticism and atheism, and crimes against Christian faith itself, and says that the aim of our prayer is that "God who is the avenger of crime, moved to mercy and pity may deliver Christendom and civil society from all dangers, and restore to them peace so much desired." So we are begging for God's mercy and pity at a time of crime and danger, and Mary is invoked in the role of "top beggar".

I do not blame you for omitting all this context about intercession, because I suppose you have not read the whole encyclical. Neither have I. (If I am wrong, and you have read the whole thing, then I apologize: but then I must also wonder how it was that these contexts disappeared.)

Bottom line: this is all about Mary, a handmaid and member of the Body of Christ, offering prayers to God: not some bogus goddess. With the rest of Christendom, I thank God for granting her highest honor among His servants. (See tagline.)

Until tomorrow, a peaceful evening to you.

508 posted on 04/21/2015 5:37:57 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("God, in destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." - John Calvin)
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To: Eucharista
I wouldn't expect you to understand because you don't seem to understand who she is and who we are.

We know who you THINK she is and we know who you are...

We should all want to go directly to God. However, because we lack perfection in the virtues of faith, humility, obedience, and love, we therefore lack perfection in our desire and direction.

And that's why Jesus died on the Cross...Because no matter what, regardless of the mother of Jesus, we can never attain what is requied of God to get to heaven...Jesus paid the FULL price...Mary can't help you get to heaven any more than Cassius Clay...

It is not unlike asking your wife to iron your shirt before you go to church.

Christians wear 'wash and wear'...

509 posted on 04/21/2015 5:38:48 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Eucharista; All
"CCC 841..."I can see where you are trying to take this and why. You are looking to throw any of a hundred or so oft used criticism hoping one will stick and harm the Church....keep trying. Nothing has worked yet. Please remember that the word "Allah" is the Arabic word for God, not the name of God. If Faith alone saved, the Muslims would be saved.

The Church regards with esteem also the Muslims. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in himself; merciful and all-powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even his inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. - Nostra Aetate 3


Francis, is that really you posting here today?

Regardless, whoever posted this above is not a person to be listened to any further by any Christian, RC or non-RC. Anathema.

Definitely another Gospel.
510 posted on 04/21/2015 5:43:46 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: rwa265

You do understand this in from a catholic website....right?


511 posted on 04/21/2015 5:43:47 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: CynicalBear
It's always a good idea to take people at their word. It's also a good policy to ask them for clarification when there seems to be some apparent conflict or ambiguity.

I learn a lot that way.

512 posted on 04/21/2015 5:45:30 PM PDT by Mrs. Don-o ("God, in destining Mary to be the Mother of his Son, granted her the highest honor." - John Calvin)
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To: smvoice

Great synopsis...


513 posted on 04/21/2015 5:46:33 PM PDT by Iscool
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To: Eucharista; CynicalBear
We should all want to go directly to God. However, because we lack perfection in the virtues of faith, humility, obedience, and love, we therefore lack perfection in our desire and direction. It is not unlike asking your wife to iron your shirt before you go to church.

It doesn't take perfection in any virtue to decide to go directly to God.

It's merely a choice we make whether we are going to obey His commands on who to pray to or not.

Those who believe Him and trust Him and take Him at His word will go to Him in prayer, believin He Himself will answer those prayers Himself.

Those who don't trust Him, who pray in unbelief, will go to someone else to try to get from God what they don't believe He will give them Himself.

514 posted on 04/21/2015 5:47:18 PM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: Mrs. Don-o
Pope Leo cited St. Dominic as saying he composed the Rosary "as to recall the mysteries of our salvation in succession": its purpose is to meditate on the salvation obtained for us by Jesus Christ, "the way, the truth, and the life".

Again, for the catholic, everything has to go through Mary. In many ways it sure seems she replaces Christ in the life of the catholic.

Why not just focus on John 14:6 and study the life of Christ? Keep Him as the main focus.

515 posted on 04/21/2015 5:48:02 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: metmom
Those who don't trust Him, who pray in unbelief, will go to someone else to try to get from God what they don't believe He will give them Himself.

There. That.

The rest is just bubble-wrap.
516 posted on 04/21/2015 5:49:48 PM PDT by Resettozero
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To: Eucharista; Resettozero

Everyone, stop making this thread ‘about’ individual Freepers. Discuss the message, not the messenger.


517 posted on 04/21/2015 5:52:24 PM PDT by Religion Moderator
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To: Elsie

I believe the point was that He was addressing the FATHER...and we should too.


518 posted on 04/21/2015 5:59:32 PM PDT by SumProVita (Cogito, ergo....Sum Pro Vita - Modified Descartes)
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To: Eucharista
Why should I presume that you are older or more "Job-like" than me?

Presuming is something you apparently do well...

By what means have you achieved a level of knowledge and understanding of Catholic teaching sufficient to make your observations anything more that amateurish opinions?

519 posted on 04/21/2015 5:59:48 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Eucharista
I am here only to ensure that Catholic teaching is fairly and accurately presented.

Then you must be a Protestant!!


"One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved, in which the priest himself is the sacrifice, Jesus Christ, whose body and blood are truly contained in the sacrament of the altar under the species of bread and wine; the bread (changed) into His body by the divine power of transubstantiation, and the wine into the blood, so that to accomplish the mystery of unity we ourselves receive from His (nature) what He Himself received from ours." — Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215)

Therefore, if anyone says that it is not by the institution of Christ the lord himself (that is to say, by divine law) that blessed Peter should have perpetual successors in the primacy over the whole Church; or that the Roman Pontiff is not the successor of blessed Peter in this primacy: let him be anathema. — Vatican 1, Ses. 4, Cp. 1

520 posted on 04/21/2015 6:01:18 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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