Posted on 04/12/2015 11:16:47 AM PDT by RnMomof7
The following is an edited transcript of the audio.
Are Christians under the 10 commandments?
No. The Bible says we're not under the law.
I love Romans 7:4-6. By way of analogy, it says that you are married to the law. And you better stay married because if you leave this husband and go marry another you are going to be called an adulterer. But if your husband dies, then you can go and remarry.
And then Paul draws the analogy out—a little complex the way he does it—saying that you died to the law. You aren't married anymore, you can have another husband, namely Christ. He's raised from the dead.
So, our approach towards ethics is different. We don't ask the question, "Am I under the law?" We are under grace. The law is already fulfilled perfectly by Jesus. We are in Jesus and as far justification goes, God sees it as completed for you, one-hundred percent. He says, "You've trusted my Son. You've been grafted in him. You are in Christ Jesus and he fulfilled the law perfectly. He covered all your sins." God sees you in and through Christ, therefore, as far as final judgment goes God is 100% for you. That is settled and nothing is going to change it.
Now, shall we sin that grace may abound? Paul says, "Dead men don't sin." If you've died to sin, how can you still live in it? The new birth is the writing of the law on our heart so that we are not under it, it is under us. It is just coming out.
The way we strive towards being obedient, holy and loving people is not by getting up in the morning and pulling the list out of our pocket. No! We get on our knees and we open ourselves to the whole counsel of God in the Bible. We saturate and shape ourselves by everything he has done, he is doing and he will do. We stake our lives in the gospel and then instead of serving the law, we serve one another in love.
Love is the fruit of faith in Jesus—faith working through love. And if you ask, "What does love look like?" First John says, "It keeps the commandments." That brings us back to the question, which commandments? I would say, the ones that are loving.
Love God and do as you please is not bad advice, if you're bent on holiness. If you're bent on love the ten commandments are really important. You should hang them on your wall and you should measure your life by them, but in a very different way than when you were under them, because they have been kept for you.
You are now married to the risen Christ. You are not married to the law and the oldness of the letter, but to the newness of the Spirit. Our whole approach towards transformation, love and life is different than list keeping.
Arthur I wonder if you have ever read the bible
Scripture speaks of the saved receiving "crowns"
1 Corinthians 9:24-25 ,1 Thessalonians 2:19,2 Timothy 4:8,1 Peter 5:4,Revelation 2:10...
Ninety nine or so percent of Christians are Gentiles. Therefore the Ten Commandments apply to Christians.
Scripture is clear ..the SAVED are not under the Ten Commandments or the Noahide laws..
We stand in the completed work of Christ..
https://carm.org/are-christians-under-the-law
That’s not at all the case.
The matter is justification.
We either need (a) to be absolutely perfect, or (b) God’s mercy, so that despite us doing as He hates, sinning, He yet accepts us even though we’re not perfect.
None of us can live up to A. But through Jesus, we can be saved by B, God’s mercy.
This is really a question of our guilt. We’ve all murdered in our hearts. We’re all murderers in God’s eyes. When someone has committed a murder or other serious crime, what good works offset that? Or can the murderer say that for many thousands of days in his life he never committed a serious crime, and he only did once for a brief moment, so the murder doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things?
When someone claims to be saved by faith and by works, they are claiming that they are partly saved by Jesus (whom they need because of their “bad self,”) and partly saved by themselves (their “good self,” who, as the atheists say, doesn’t need God because it’s already good.)
To be partly “saved by works” is to, like Satan, claim a partial independence and non-need for God. It’s also to claim that both God and self are sources for good. This flies in the face of what Paul wrote, though, that we have nothing to boast about because there isn’t anything good in ourselves we haven’t received from God.
And something else very wrong about the saved by works thinking is that it turns works into a loss to self and would place God in debt to man, as Paul writes. The lie is created that the worker is a “good person” who deserves better than the tough row God gives him to hoe, but sacrifices for God anyway because of how wonderful he is, and would be entitled to feel self-pity or pride, and certainly has more than earned his way to Heaven by all he’s put up with. Again, it all comes back to that we’ve all sinned against God. We’re all sinners and no one could stand justified before God without receiving God’s merciful forgiveness. Who doesn’t need that? Who can claim utter righteousness and that God is entitled to give them eternal life because they haven’t sinned?
Once you understand that you can’t get around the need for God’s mercy, then it’s a lot easier to see how works fit in (and they do - Bible-believing Christians speak of the importance and necessity of works all the time, just not as Catholics do). And that our turning to Christ to begin with is in self-interest (to save our skins, as the Prodigal Son recognized that he’d be better off returning to his father because he’d be taken care of, not because he was initially sorry).
One is not saved by believing he is saved. If his life consists of breaking the Ten Commandments and believing it is of no account because some prophetess told him he is not obligated to keep the commandments because he is not under the law, he is deceived. Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
First Corinthians, Catholic chapter six, Protestant verses nine to ten,
Galatians, Catholic chapter five, Protestant verses nineteen to twenty one,
Second Timothy, Catholic chapter three, in its entirety,
Revelation, Catholic chapter twenty two, Protestant verses ten to sixteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
Yes for the sake of justification God’s commandments are “optional.”
How do you expect to go to Heaven?
By (A) never having committed a sin ever against God. One sin at any time in your life makes you imperfect, a sinner, and condemns you to Hell.
Considering that by this option, you are not even permitted one sin or you go to Hell, then all sin had better become “optional” in a sense. That means that God will forgive you for it. Who after even becoming a believer in Christ doesn’t need God’s forgiveness?
Or, (B) receiving God’s mercy.
Remember, the Pharisees thought they’d kept the law but even where they had, superficially, they were sinners at heart and no doubt in deed like everyone else. They thought, though, that their “good works” entitled them to Heaven (and made them morally superior to others).
Remember too, the parable of the Pharisee who commended himself to God, while the publican wouldn’t even lift His eyes to God and just begged His mercy, and it was the publican who was justified. The publican knew that no matter what, he stood guilty before God, and his only hope was to ask for God’s mercy. He didn’t tell God that he’d done this, this and this good work, but recognized due to his sin he was condemned and all he could do was throw himself on God’s mercy.
All this doesn’t mean that we aren’t to do right, though. The Bible has plenty to say on that. But we simply can’t earn our salvation by moral perfection without receiving God’s mercy.
So to you too the question, on what basis would you expect to go to Heaven, having kept God’s law 100% perfectly your entire life, as Jesus did, and never committing even one sin, which condemns you to Hell if you did, or by receiving God’s mercy? That is the crux of the matter. Works fits in after that, but the question is, can you merit Heaven? Do you have the righteousness to be entitled to it, or do you need God’s mercy to make it?
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
(e-Sword:KJV)
I can. They all apply... Every jot and tittle...
Wrong. Justification/salvation has NEVER been a matter of law. That isn't what Torah is *for*.
I don’t believe justification/salvation have ever been a matter of law, either, or what the Torah are for. Could you explain what you mean a little more?
Very well said.
How to make money:
Say that the laws are living and breathing.
Offer forgiveness or benefits
Tax or Tithe
bingo!
Protestants have it basically right - Salvation is by grace, and grace alone, and *none* of works, lest any man should boast.
AND Protestants have it basically right that works are the fruit of salvation, not the other way around.
What they forget is what 'works' IS - Works of the law... Works of Torah. YHWH says he will write his Torah upon our hearts - To me, that means that he will cause me to DESIRE his Torah. That I will want to keep it.
We are not bound to the law by curses - Yeshua took those curses upon himself for our sakes. But if we love YHWH we will keep his commandments, and his commandments are not grievous. Of course we are to keep the ten. We are supposed to keep the whole of Torah, even as the prophets declare that the whole world will do one day. Might as well get started now.
You keep saying this; yet provide no evidence.
This juror is getting tired of the runaround.
On the basis of his word; just take him at his word nothing doubting. And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.
Matthew, Catholic chapter nineteen, Protestant verses sixteen to nineteen,
Luke, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses twenty give to twenty eight,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
Well of course I gave evidence. Here, let me spell it out for you so you don't have to strain your mouse finger:
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
(e-Sword:KJV)
These words were commanded by your Master.
What you have NOT done is show that it applies to GENTILES.
What will you do with Acts 15???
So you’ve never broken the law, then, not even once?
And complete your theology. How does Jesus humbling Himself to become a man and dying on the Cross fit in?
You also left out part of Jesus’ conversation with the ruler, and only discuss part of it. Have you given all your riches away yet to follow Jesus?
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