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Fathers and Daughters – Is This a Missing Key to Modesty Today?
Archdiocese of Washington ^ | 03-25-15 | Msgr. Charles Pope

Posted on 03/26/2015 8:25:50 AM PDT by Salvation

Fathers and Daughters – Is This a Missing Key to Modesty Today?

By: Msgr. Charles Pope

http://blog.adw.org/wp-content/uploads/modesty.jpg

We often speak today of the terrible toll that fatherless homes have on young boys. And this is true. Without a reasonably good (even though not sinless) model of manhood and responsibility, many boys lose their way. Fathers also play a large role in disciplining boys, especially as they grow older and become  stronger than their mothers.

But missing fathers also bring forth terrible effects on many girls. Women, even young girls, certainly do seek and desire the love and appreciation of men and have a desire to be thought of as precious, beautiful, and lovable. Ideally a father is able to model for his daughter that a man can appreciate and love her for her own sake, apart from merely her physical charms and “curves.”

Learning this seems critical for a young girl, who is then able to discern the difference between this and the love of other men who may desire her in a more sexual way. That they have sexual desire for her is not wrong per se, but neither is it wrong for her to know that she is lovable for her own sake. Simply loving her for her physical charms is lust. True love is loving her her for her own sake. And even if sexual attraction is part of the picture, it is only part and she can know the difference. Having recognized that a man (in the first case her father) can love her in this fuller way, she is able to insist on it and discern when a young man’s “love” is too narrow.

However, when a young girl does not learn this from her father, she likely still craves the approval of men. But not having learned from her father how to discern the attention of men and not having experienced that she is lovable for her own sake beyond mere physical beauty, she will often confuse the attention that is lust with the love and approval she really seeks.

While I am no professional sociologist, it seems to me that there is a rather strong correlation between the decline of fathers in the home and the rise of immodesty among women. As a man, I find this rise odd and ponder why immodesty is so widespread among women. Why do so many women like to wear short skirts and tight clothes (which seem so uncomfortable) and walk about beaches in a state of almost complete nudity (bikinis)? Something is amiss and way out of balance.

At one level, I have come to discover (through discussions with women on the issue of modesty) that many (especially younger) women really don’t have any idea the effect that they have on men. I have confirmed this in discussion with our Sunday school teenagers. In discussions moderated by women, many young girls just haven’t figured it all out yet. When asked, “Why do you dress that (provocative) way?” they often say, “I don’t know, it’s … like … y’know … comfortable??? … It’s like … cool???”

While some of them may be fibbing, and really do know why, I don’t doubt that, to some degree, there is an innocence about what they do that needs to be schooled. In the past, fathers could help in this regard. Some years ago I remember a remarkable little passage by John Eldridge, in the Book, Wild at Heart that decoded something I have noticed even in the youngest girls:

And finally, every woman wants to have a beauty to unveil. Not to conjure, but to unveil. Most women feel the pressure to be beautiful from very young, but that is not what I speak of. There is also a deep desire to simply and truly be the beauty, and be delighted in. Most little girls will remember playing dress up, or wedding day, or twirling skirts, those flowing dresses that were perfect for spinning around in. She’ll put her pretty dress on, come into the living room and twirl. What she longs for is to capture her daddy’s delight. My wife remembers standing on top of the coffee table as a girl of five or six, and singing her heart out. Do you see me? asks the heart of every girl. And are you captivated by what you see? (Kindle edition Loc 367-83)

Perhaps it is this innocence that has gone somehow wrong, has been untutored, causing some young girls to dress immodestly. And many of them bring that into adulthood.

But even if their intentions are innocent, it is not wrong to teach girls that not everyone views their display so innocently and further that some boys/men are deeply troubled by the temptation it brings, especially as these girls get a bit older.

There is surely a time to provoke and celebrate a sexual appeal and joy: in the marriage bed. But outside this context, women ought to be seen more richly as wives, mothers, sisters, daughters, teachers, and scientists, indeed as whole persons with interests, needs, concerns, and richly varied lives. Fathers can have a critical role in teaching this to both their sons and their daughters.

In the past when I saw an immodestly attired young woman I would ask, “Where is her mother?” Increasingly I also ask, “Where is her father?” She doesn’t seem to understand men. She wants the attention of men but in a way that presses all the wrong buttons. Maybe she’s never considered that a man can and should love her for her own sake, beyond her physical attributes. Maybe she never had the chance to twirl her skirts before a father who delighted in her but without sexual motives, who could tell her she was beautiful and wonderful without the desire to exploit. Maybe she’s still craving this delight but is now twirling her skirts and revealing her beauty to men who cannot, or will not, admire her with such pure motives. And maybe she can’t tell the difference between lust (exploitative desire) and love (desire of her for her own sake) because she never had a father, a good father, there to model the difference.

Anyway, I know women are complicated and that I’m probably going to get killed by both women and men for this post. But before you lay me out, consider for your comment why you think immodesty is so widespread in our culture? I would appreciate it if we could avoid the “men are pigs”, or “these young girls dress like sluts” types of comments. I’m looking for understanding more than venting. I know we all have strong opinions about this topic and that some don’t believe there is in fact any immodesty at all (even in a tiny bikini (a view I think that requires real denial or serious blindness). But the point I’d like to ponder is why.

I have written more on the questions of modesty here:

  1. Modesty is Reverence for Mystery
  2. Modesty and Men
  3. A School Finally Cracks Down


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: boys; catholic; daughter; daughters; daughtersandfathers; family; father; fathers; fathersanddaughters; females; feminism; girls; innocence; manhood; marriage; men; modesty; moralabsolutes; parents; sex; sexualdesire; teens; virtues; women
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To: Salvation

The Bible holds men responsible for training their children, Dueteronomy 6 for example. Feminism has made biblical patriarchy unseemly to many & many men have been all too willing to hand that role to women. Even in churches, women do everything but preach. Who teaches Sunday school, bible school, leads the choir, etc?

Fathers are to be the spiritual leaders.


21 posted on 03/26/2015 9:19:28 AM PDT by NorthstarMom
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To: Salvation

Wedding gowns used to be ‘virginal’ styles. Strapless does not fit that theme. They look more night clubby or sundress style.


22 posted on 03/26/2015 9:26:26 AM PDT by LYDIAONTARIO
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To: Salvation

This was the subject taught to teen boys in my sons youth group several weeks ago

to tell the boys that “masculinity” on their part required understanding why some girls seek out sexual contact, because they are craving the male attention they did not get from a father, and it is the boys’ responsibility, as young men, to not take advantage of this

t made an impact on my son


23 posted on 03/26/2015 9:33:04 AM PDT by silverleaf (Age takes a toll: Please have exact change)
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To: Salvation

In 1983 my wife’s wedding gown had long sleeves & a high neckline with some tulle lace, but that’s what every bride wore then.

The Lord called her home in 2001. But before then strapless had already become standard; she would look at the brides in the Sunday paper & ask why these girls were showing what only their husbands should see.

I have been blessed with a new wife. When I could not even give away that 1983 gown to the bridal shops, she suggested a costume shop, where they gratefully accepted it as a “Victorian Gibson Girl evening gown” & regarded it as an antique.

Anyway, girls need their fathers just as much as their mothers. The absence is devastating on a vast scale.


24 posted on 03/26/2015 9:38:47 AM PDT by elcid1970 ("Go to Geneva and see Ulrich Zwingli's smashed helmet.")
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To: Salvation
As somebody once put it, because of what girls wear to the beach, girls come back from the beach with their bodies tanned, and boys come back from the beach with their souls blackened.
25 posted on 03/26/2015 9:49:16 AM PDT by JoeFromSidney (Book RESISTANCE TO TYRANNY, available from Amazon.)
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To: JoeFromSidney

Wow, a phrase worth remembering.


26 posted on 03/26/2015 10:07:35 AM PDT by Sergio (An object at rest cannot be stopped! - The Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs at Midnight)
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To: JoeFromSidney

Great thought there.


27 posted on 03/26/2015 10:08:52 AM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Salvation

I think there’s some intentional “overkill” going on. That is, women are dressing “immodestly” in the strict sense ... but they look simply awful, and they obviously don’t notice or don’t care.


28 posted on 03/26/2015 10:13:07 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Google "tiny kitten pictures," and put down the gun.)
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To: elcid1970
“Victorian Gibson Girl evening gown”

That sounds like my wedding dress (1989), too!

29 posted on 03/26/2015 10:14:19 AM PDT by Tax-chick (Google "tiny kitten pictures," and put down the gun.)
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To: Salvation

I was just having this discussion with a friend of mine. boys need men to show them how to treat their wives, and girls need them to learn how their husbands should treat them.


30 posted on 03/26/2015 10:22:21 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: LYDIAONTARIO
Wedding gowns used to be ‘virginal’ styles. Strapless does not fit that theme. They look more night clubby or sundress style.

When that started to happen I was in a state of shock.. weddings were no longer a celebration of the wedding..but a huge party with people having a "stage" to show off on" ..planned and choreographed dances by Husband and wife or mother and son or the bridesmaids.. even dancing down the isle of a church .. its all one big show.. sometimes the kids of the couple..or kids from other relationships dance and walk down the isle too...

THEN someone pointed out that most couple getting married have been living together for years so this is really nothing more than a big party given for their friends

31 posted on 03/26/2015 10:31:11 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: Salvation

I have a daughter who is supposed to start first grade this year. In Germany, they test children to see if they are actually ready to sit in a class and start learning or if they should wait another year.

My wife and I been worried because our daughter was born late in the year, so she is still has issues sitting still. Plus she is learning German and English so her pronunciation was not great.

For the past three months we hired a speech therapist and I been encouraging her to focus more and sit still for longer.

Last week our daughter was tested. We get an official response soon but my wife was very happy because they said she is 50/50 if she should start first grade this year and that the decision could be up to us.

Then it struck me and I told my wife : Forget whatever crazy bs we been talking about before. When she starts school a year later, that means we are likely to have her in our daily lives a year more... before she goes off to start her own life.


32 posted on 03/26/2015 10:33:23 AM PDT by Berlin_Freeper (Ted Cruz 2016!)
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To: RnMomof7

They may as well just go to the justice of the peace and then do a big reception. Why bother using church if it’s just a decoration?


33 posted on 03/26/2015 10:33:44 AM PDT by LYDIAONTARIO
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To: defconw
When my wife was a schoolgirl in England many decades ago, all the girls had a strict dresscode and had to wear a uniform with the skirts at a prescribed length and subject to inspection.

As soon as school was over or school authorities were out sight, the first thing many of the girls did was to roll up their skirts and unbutton the top button of their blouses. My wife laughed as she was telling me this story. The girls didn't necessarily want to look prim and proper. They wanted to attract boys.

34 posted on 03/26/2015 10:38:04 AM PDT by driftless2 (For long term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: Sergio

Yeah, I used to come back from the beach with my soles blackened. Until I finally remembered to wear my sneakers when walking on the sand. Darn, that sand was hot. Oh wait..he said souls. Sorry.


35 posted on 03/26/2015 10:41:42 AM PDT by driftless2 (For long term happiness, learn how to play the accordion.)
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To: LYDIAONTARIO
Tradition.. I guess ... BTW my youngest daughter was raised RC.. nothing now ... but when she came home to get married my task was to find a church that would marry them ..That was a difficult task.. of course no Rc church would..no Evangelical church I knew would, my pastor would not...I had to do some real digging ..A Lutheran deacon I knew suggested a local Historical landmark Lutheran that maintained itself by being basically "wedding chapel"

I met with the "pastor"..a very nice man that agreed to do the service for $500.00 and an extra $100 for the organist

The church was beautiful a true historic gem.. the service was understated with the bible readings appropriate, the pastor gave a sermon on the meaning of marriage.. the bride was beautiful in her very plain modest dress..

To her tradition demanded she get married in a church..

36 posted on 03/26/2015 10:47:44 AM PDT by RnMomof7
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To: NorthstarMom

Amen!


37 posted on 03/26/2015 10:52:17 AM PDT by metmom (...fixing our eyes on Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our faith...)
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To: driftless2
Exactly. At one school, they told the girls to stop rolling the skirts and stop wearing skimpy tops. There was a dress code and they were pushing it of course. Well it did not stop. So now those girls have to wear khaki pants and golf shirts.
38 posted on 03/26/2015 11:09:08 AM PDT by defconw (Fight all error, and do it with good humor, patience, kindness and love. -St. John Cantius)
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To: RnMomof7
Do you remember the billboard from several years ago:

Very nice wedding, don't forget to invite me to the marriage.

~God~

39 posted on 03/26/2015 11:29:18 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: NorthstarMom
but as (IMO) women now tend to rule the roost,

That does appear to be true in many households, much to the detriment of anyone unfortunate enough to be living in such a household.

40 posted on 03/26/2015 11:34:54 AM PDT by NorthMountain ("The time has come", the Walrus said, "to talk of many things")
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