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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^
| February 05, 2007
| Lee
Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7
It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.
In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for Mary full of grace since Clements entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.
Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the sword that pierces Marys soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.
The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.
The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like Mother of God and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.
Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: MHGinTN
You have proof of her death?
Psalm 13:3
Look on me and answer, Lord my God. Give light to my eyes, or I will sleep in death,
Psalm 90:5
Yet you sweep people away in the sleep of death they are like the new grass of the morning:
Daniel 12:2
Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 11:12-13
His disciples replied, Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.
Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.
1 Corinthians 15:51-52
Listen, I tell you a mystery:
We will not all sleep, but we will all be changedin a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.
For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
Ephesians 5:14
This is why it is said: Wake up, sleeper, rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you.
1 Thessalonians 4:13
Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope.
181
posted on
03/24/2015 9:20:51 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: Mrs. Don-o; Elsie
As for the supreme honor due to God, here's part of how we express it in Catholicism. It would be wrong ("Latria") to apply the Gloria to Mary: You roman catholics keep believing that:
Bernadine:
all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.
Bonaventure:
the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION. Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven, serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.
To: paladinan
See my previous comment. Or are you suggesting that "the child who is to rule with an iron rod" is someone other than Jesus? Revelation 12:6
Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.
Where was this place, and did she go alone?
183
posted on
03/24/2015 9:25:17 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: paladinan; Elsie
Hold on. Unless you can show that the NT insists that "we must always limit ourselves to examples which are explicitly found in the NT", then this idea is dead in the water. Another example of why we measure all against the Bible.
Bernadine:
all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.
To: paladinan
Do you see my point? That HEBREW translation is different than GREEK?
185
posted on
03/24/2015 9:26:26 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: paladinan
Those who type such foul and perverse things about the Mother of Jesus say far more about themselves than they ever say about Mary. What is foul and perverse?
What I typed ACCURATELY describe the teachings about the Mary of the Catholic Church.
186
posted on
03/24/2015 9:27:42 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: verga
>>You mean like Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS?<<
No, I mean like Paul clearly stated in Galatians 1:8
187
posted on
03/24/2015 9:29:08 AM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: ealgeone
Like Rush has shown:
Using absurdity to illustrate absurdity.
188
posted on
03/24/2015 9:29:14 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: paladinan
What is that saying, again, about stones and glass houses? Uh...
...people who live in rock houses shouldn't throw glass?
189
posted on
03/24/2015 9:30:41 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: MHGinTN
No provable answer to the question of whether or not she died? Surely you jest. Any inference that she didn’t die but was assumed while still alive into heaven contradicts scripture.
190
posted on
03/24/2015 9:32:09 AM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: paladinan
(etc.--there are over 50 occurrences of the specific phrase "I pray thee" in the KJV, alone)
I just LOVE occurances!!!
Bernadine:
all gifts, all virtues, and all graces are dispensed by the hands of Mary to whomsoever, when, and as she pleases. O Lady, since thou art the dispenser of all graces, and since the grace of salvation can ONLY come through thy hands, OUR SALVATION DEPENDS ON THEE.
Bonaventure:
the gates of heaven will open to all who confide in the protection of Mary. Blessed are they who know thee, O Mother of God, for the knowledge of THEE is the high road to everlasting life, and the publication of thy virtues is the way of ETERNAL SALVATION . Give ear, O ye nations; and all you who desire heaven , serve, honor Mary, and certainly you will find ETERNAL LIFE.
Ephem:
devotion to the divine Mother
is the unlocking of the heavenly Jerusalem.
Blosius: To the, O Lady, are committed the KEYS and the treasures of the kingdom of Heaven.
Ambrose:
constantly pray Open to us, O Mary, the gates of paradise, since thou hast its KEYS.
Fulgetius:
by Mary God descended from Heaven into the world, that by HER man might ascend from earth to Heaven.
Athanasius:
And, thou, O Lady, wast filled with grace, that thou mightiest be the way of our SALVATION and the means of ascent to the heavenly Kingdom.
Richard of Laurence: Mary, in fine, is the mistress of heaven; for there she commands as she wills, and ADMITS whom she wills.
Guerric:
he who serves Mary and for whom she intercedes, is as CERTAIN of heaven as if he were already there
and those who DO NOT serve Mary will NOT BE SAVED.
Anselm: It suffices, O Lady, that thou willest it, and our SALVATION is certain.
Antoninus:
souls protected by Mary, and on which she casts her eyes, are NECESSARILY JUSTIFIED AND SAVED.
191
posted on
03/24/2015 9:32:44 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: verga
Repeating a falsity will NEVER make it true.
192
posted on
03/24/2015 9:34:16 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: paladinan
"... Mary, and all the Saints, are in Heaven... which is beyond time (and space) completely." And that is very likely a specious remark for which you have zero scriptural support. There are two axioms which I first encountered here at FR, and which have been of immense help in 'getting things into context'. I will share them with you and let you apply them to the discussions found in this thread, since you would not be open to 'instruction' from me, a non-Catholic: Without dimension Time, events do not occur; without dimension Space a thing does not exist.
Apply the axioms to things in the Created Universe, because any thing that exists has some aspect of Space, thus Jesus is in some where/when that has been created and thus is IN the Universe God created 'through Him, by Him, and for Him, and without Him was nothing created.'
You may be sure of this because you KNOW in your heart that God raised Jesus from the dead and that He has a body even unto this day, and He has taken that body across temporal and spatial boundaries yet it still IS a physical (thus a spacetime) body. It is not given to you or me to know the full nature of this other where/when, but rest assured it must have temporal and or spatial reality to exist.
193
posted on
03/24/2015 9:34:56 AM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
To: Elsie
To: Elsie; paladinan
paladinan thinks we should be able to use whatever we want!
To: Elsie
For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout with the voice of the Archangel, and with the trump of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the Air. So shall we ever be with the Lord. ... A very interesting inference to the Jewish process of marriage.
And when we read that He said He goers to prepare a place for us, do we err in thinking that is 'create a place' rather than rearrange things for a place to receive us to?
196
posted on
03/24/2015 9:39:34 AM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
To: paladinan
Heaven... which is beyond time (and space) completely. There is no past or future; there's only an eternal "now". You have exactly zero Biblical data to support that ...
To: Mrs. Don-o
Oh, so now you want to change the word to "honor". The Greek word for "honor" is timaó. It is neither latria nor dulos. The meaning of timaó is to properly assign value. "honor your father and your mother involves neither servitude nor becoming a slave of.
I'm not following you down that rabbit trail any longer. Catholics clearly give to Mary what belongs to God alone. Denying it doesn't change the fact of it.
198
posted on
03/24/2015 9:42:31 AM PDT
by
CynicalBear
(For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus)
To: CynicalBear
Okay, if you like, show me how this contradicts scripture. Not how you can make some inference based upon what is normative for the rest of humankind (well, except Tabitha, and Lazarus, and the widows son, etc).
199
posted on
03/24/2015 9:44:12 AM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
To: dartuser; paladinan
Heaven... which is beyond time (and space) completely. There is no past or future; there's only an eternal "now".>You have exactly zero Biblical data to support that ...<
This isn't the only topic he/she has zero Biblical data to support!
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