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Rejecting Mariology
Two-Edged Sword ^
| February 05, 2007
| Lee
Posted on 03/23/2015 2:14:57 PM PDT by RnMomof7
It is often claimed the Mary was heralded by the Patristics as a woman full of grace, perhaps sinless, and deserving our veneration above other departed saints as the Mother of the Church. This is not the case. While I do freely admit that the word Patristic can be used to cover a variety of ages, I prefer to use it to the pre-nicaean leaders of the church. Let us start with them, and we can move on from there.
In the Apostolic Fathers, as the first century leaders are often called, one sees little to no mention of Mary at all. Clement of Rome leaves her out of his epistle completely. This is a glaring omission for Mary full of grace since Clements entire letter is about submission, faith, and peace. Clement uses as examples of Christian living Paul, Peter, Moses, Abraham, David, and several martyrs in addition to Jesus Christ. Beyond that he even uses a few women as examples. Rahab gets the most ink as a wonderful example of faith, two women killed by Nero are mentioned, Esther get a paragraph, as does Judith from the Apocrypha. But no Mary. First century writers seem to view Mary as a good believer, but nothing more, much like Protestants today.
Second century writers turn up the first exaltation references to Mary, but even these are over stated. Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian all try to draw Mary as the anti-type of Eve as Jesus was of Adam. This leads to some grandiose statements about Mary, but the ancient mind often thought more typologically and allegorically then we do today. These men did not have any allusions about Mary being above sin (original or actual). In fact Irenaeus condemns Mary as a sinner for her role in the Wedding of Cana arguing that Jesus rebukes her for her presumptuous pride. Tertullian along with other second century leaders like Origen and later writers like Basil the Great and Chrysostom (4th century) all ascribe to Mary the sins of maternal vanity, anxiety, and doubt and state that the sword that pierces Marys soul in Luke 2:35 are these sins. Hardly a high view of Mary despite their typological attempts.
The rise of Mary really follows the rise of Monasticism and the encroachment of Neo-platonism into Christianity. The third and fourth centuries see apocryphal texts like the Gospel of the birth of Mary, which were all condemned by the church as a whole, but eventually the teachings of these books would be folded into the Mariology of the Roman church. The asceticism of the monastic orders arising from their neo-platonic view of the flesh exalted Mary as the ultimate example and claimed for her perpetual virginity. This helped give their life-style a bigger backing as well as giving them a patron saint.
The controversies of the 5th century about Christ led to Mary being the Mother of God as a test of orthodoxy. Mother of God was not meant to convey anything at all about Mary, but rather something about the natures of Jesus. However, it would come to be twisted to elevate Mary into something higher than merely human. The first person to actually advocate Mary did not have any actual or original sin was Pelegius, the free-will opponent of Augustine. During this time also one must remember that Rome was destroyed by the uneducated and pagan barbarians. As the centers of learning were destroyed the educated clergy could no longer restrain phrases like Mother of God and Mariology became Marialotry took on a life of its own as the masses carried Mary to extremes she was never meant to reach. By the time of Gregory the Great, Bishop of Rome, Mary was installed in her current position for the Roman church. Gregory freely instructed his missionaries to the barbarians not to destroy pagan temples, but rename them and the statues in them. Many pagan temples were to women, and Mary worship was well on its way.
Thus, I do not think Protestantism needs a Mariology at all. Mary is a wonderful example of saintly piety and faith as are many people in the Bible. She should not be avoided for she is the mother of our Lord. But we must remember, as I believe the Reformed tradition does, she is simply one of his disciples no better than any other believer in Christ. This is, after all, exactly what our Lord teaches in Matthew 12:47-50.
Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
TOPICS: Catholic; Charismatic Christian; Evangelical Christian
KEYWORDS: christ; mary; worship
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To: Iscool
Now there are two bets...The 2nd one on who it is that runs to the moderator...
What is that saying, again, about stones and glass houses?
161
posted on
03/24/2015 8:22:58 AM PDT
by
paladinan
(Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
To: paladinan
>Please, no more one verse theology.<
:) Hm. Does that apply to the Protestant side, as well? (I'm thinking of the relentless Protestant appeals to John 6:63 in a desperate attempt to cancel out the entire remainder of John 6, and the Real Presence of Jesus Christ in the Holy Eucharist...)
Again, context is the key to understanding John 6.
To: paladinan
I believe this is your comment:
Mary, for example, doesnt need to handle millions of prayers per second (those are scare quotes, not direct quotes, BTW); she has all eternity in which to respond to them.
This is why so much of roman catholic thinking is called into question.
To: ealgeone; metmom
Difference between the two is that Christians don't assign false titles to Mary nor do we worship Mary. Wrong on both counts.You havde been told the truth repeatedly and reject it at your own risk.
Have a good day
164
posted on
03/24/2015 8:35:23 AM PDT
by
verga
(I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
To: ealgeone; RaceBannon; EagleOne
You can ask iscool to pray for you as they are a person here on earth and this would be in line with the examples we have in the NT;
Hold on. Unless you can show that the NT insists that "we must always limit ourselves to examples which are explicitly found in the NT", then this idea is dead in the water. "Sola Scriptura" is an unbiblical, self-contradictory, provably false tradition of men, and no one is obliged to follow it, much less use it as a "mandatory standard" when making arguments about the Faith.
but you do not pray TO iscool; just as we do not pray TO Mary.
See my previous comment, re: the original (and core) meaning of the word "pray" (i.e. "to ask"); the modern restriction of "pray" to "God alone" is a Protestant innovation, and it's--with all due respect--a thoughtless and self-serving one.
Neither of the last two would be examples found in the NT.
Really?
"Wherefore I pray you to take some meat: for this is for your health: for there shall not an hair fall from the head of any of you." (Acts 27:34, KJV)
The writers of the KJV, at least, knew the proper original meaning of the word. But why restrict yourself to the NT?
Say, I pray thee, thou art my sister: that it may be well with me for thy sake; (Genesis 12:13)
And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren. (Genesis 13:8--by the way, there's a reference of "brethren" not referring to "siblings", as an extra bonus!)
(etc.--there are over 50 occurrences of the specific phrase "I pray thee" in the KJV, alone)
165
posted on
03/24/2015 8:37:06 AM PDT
by
paladinan
(Rule #1: There is a God. Rule #2: It isn't you.)
To: CynicalBear
I'll stay with Paul's admonition to consider anyone who teaches something they didn't to be accursed. You mean like Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, OSAS? Becaseu no one ever taught that until the 116th or 17th Century.
166
posted on
03/24/2015 8:47:42 AM PDT
by
verga
(I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
To: goodwithagun
my name for them: Westboro Wing of the Free Republic Evangelical Dispensationlist Caucus of the Free Repubulic Religious Forum
Anathema is much less typing...
167
posted on
03/24/2015 8:50:08 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: MHGinTN
That Catholic Church doesnt even know where she was buried.You have proof of her death?
I think it has been. determined she is in the same place that Moses is interred
168
posted on
03/24/2015 8:53:13 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: MHGinTN
You have proof of her death? John 21:25
JesusMary did many other things as well. If every one were all written down, I suppose the whole world could not contain the books ...
169
posted on
03/24/2015 8:55:21 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: CynicalBear
I’m not a Catholic, so I didn’t know that. Thanks for writing, but it still cannot answer the question which will go unanswered because there is no provable answer, this side of the resurrection to come.
170
posted on
03/24/2015 8:56:03 AM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
To: Salvation
Mind reading again?Listening to 3 Portuguese children is better?
171
posted on
03/24/2015 8:56:52 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: paladinan
nice try, but Biblically wrong
The Bible clearly says Jesus had brothers and maybe sisters
172
posted on
03/24/2015 9:04:53 AM PDT
by
RaceBannon
(Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for)
To: verga
>Difference between the two is that Christians don't assign false titles to Mary nor do we worship Mary. <
Wrong on both counts.You havde been told the truth repeatedly and reject it at your own risk.
We're about to see another roman catholic who has no idea what his/her denomination has to say about Mary.
Let's see what titles roman catholics have given Mary.
Note that the below listing does not include the following attributed to Mary by the roman catholic church:
co-redemtrix
advocate
helper
I would note that the Holy Spirit is our Advocate and Helper and that Jesus, and only Jesus, is our Redeemer.
There is currently a movement to proclaim a fifth marion dogma that would make the above three titles "official" dogma of the roman catholic church. If this is passed it would take on a new level of blasphemy.
The Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary is a Marian litany originally approved in 1587 by Pope Sixtus V. It is also known as the Litany of Loreto, for its first-known place of origin, the Shrine of Our Lady of Loreto (Italy), where its usage was recorded as early as 1558.
The litany contains many of the titles used formally and informally for the Virgin Mary, and would often be recited as a call and response chant in a group setting.
Holy Mary,
pray for us.
Holy Mother of God,
Holy Virgin of virgins,
Mother of Christ,
Mother of the Church,
Mother of divine grace,
Mother most pure,
Mother most chaste,
Mother inviolate,
Mother undefiled,
Mother most amiable,
Mother admirable,
Mother of good counsel,
Mother of our Creator,
Mother of our Saviour,
Mother of mercy,
Virgin most prudent,
Virgin most venerable,
Virgin most renowned,
Virgin most powerful,
Virgin most merciful,
Virgin most faithful,
Mirror of justice,
Seat of wisdom,
Cause of our joy,
Spiritual vessel,
Vessel of honour,
Singular vessel of devotion,
Mystical rose,
Tower of David,
Tower if ivory,
House of gold,
Ark of the covenant,
Gate of heaven,
Morning star,
Health of the sick,
Refuge of sinners,
Comfort of the afflicted,
Help of Christians,
Queen of Angels,
Queen of Patriarchs,
Queen of Prophets,
Queen of Apostles,
Queen of Martyrs,
Queen of Confessors,
Queen of Virgins,
Queen of all Saints,
Queen conceived without original sin,
Queen assumed into heaven,
Queen of the most holy Rosary,
Queen of families,
Queen of peace.
http://www.vatican.va/special/rosary/documents/litanie-lauretane_en.html
To: CynicalBear
No, because "hyperdulia" does not contradict Scripture. It derives from it.
The whole idea of "giving honor to whom hnor is due" presupposes an ordered array of honors, including "honor your father and your mother," honring those in civil authority, etc. which each one having its due measure, and none of them impinging on the supreme honor due to God alone.
As for the supreme honor due to God, here's part of how we express it in Catholicism. It would be wrong ("Latria") to apply the Gloria to Mary:
Glory to God in the highest,
and on earth peace to people of good will.
We praise you,
we bless you,
we adore you,
we glorify you,
we give you thanks for your great glory,
Lord God, heavenly King,
O God, almighty Father.
Lord Jesus Christ, Only Begotten Son,
Lord God, Lamb of God, Son of the Father,
you take away the sins of the world,
have mercy on us;
you take away the sins of the world,
receive our prayer;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father,
have mercy on us.
For you alone are the Holy One,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone are the Most High,
Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit,
in the glory of God the Father.
Amen.
174
posted on
03/24/2015 9:11:13 AM PDT
by
Mrs. Don-o
(Point of One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic information)
To: ealgeone
And Catholic Still don’t Worship Mary, That is reserved for God ALONE. Repeating a falsity will NEVER make it true.
175
posted on
03/24/2015 9:13:00 AM PDT
by
verga
(I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
To: daniel1212
But some so-called church "fathers" saw marriage and its relations as unclean.
Well...
176
posted on
03/24/2015 9:14:19 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: jobim
I really meant it only as a descriptive.Like ANATHEMA?
177
posted on
03/24/2015 9:15:21 AM PDT
by
Elsie
(Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
To: paladinan; RaceBannon
Hold on. Unless you can show that the NT insists that "we must always limit ourselves to examples which are explicitly found in the NT", then this idea is dead in the water. As far as any of your thinking goes, I refer back to this bit of "logic".
Mary, for example, doesnt need to handle millions of prayers per second (those are scare quotes, not direct quotes, BTW); she has all eternity in which to respond to them.
If this is really the best you can come up with to defend praying to Mary, I dismiss the remainder of your speculations.
Regarding "pray thee", check out the wording in the Greek. Then you'll have your answer on this.
To: verga
And Catholic Still dont Worship Mary, That is reserved for God ALONE. Repeating a falsity will NEVER make it true. Let's see....you just got schooled on your false statement that catholics don't assign false titles to Mary and you double down on this. Hilarious!
Keep that business in mind about not worshipping Mary as you light your incense and candles and kneel before your idol of Mary as you pray TO her.
To: ealgeone
Beautifully revealed! Thank you for the clear unfolding of the Greek.
180
posted on
03/24/2015 9:20:06 AM PDT
by
MHGinTN
(Is it really all relative, Mister Einstein?)
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