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The Church Fathers, A Door to Rome!
Way of Life ^ | David Cloud

Posted on 03/07/2015 2:48:45 PM PST by RaceBannon

The Church Fathers, A Door to Rome

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Many people have walked into the Roman Catholic Church through the broad door of the “church fathers,” and this is a loud warning today when there is a widespread attraction to the “church fathers” within evangelicalism. 

The Catholic apologetic ministries use the “church fathers” to prove that Rome’s doctrines go back to the earliest centuries. In the book
Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic, David Currie continually uses the church fathers to support his position. He says, “The other group of authors whom Evangelicals should read ... is the early Fathers of the Church” (p. 4).

The contemplative prayer movement is built on this same weak foundation. The late Robert Webber, a Wheaton College professor who was one of the chief proponents of this back to the “church fathers” movement, said: 

“The early Fathers can bring us back to what is common and help us get behind our various traditions ... Here is where our unity lies. ... evangelicals need to go beyond talk about the unity of the church to experience it through an attitude of acceptance of the whole church and an entrance into dialogue with the Orthodox, Catholic, and other Protestant bodies” (
Ancient-Future Faith, 1999, p. 89).

The fact is that the “early Fathers” were mostly heretics! 

This term refers to various church leaders of the first few centuries after the apostles whose writings have been preserved. 

The only genuine “church fathers” are the apostles and prophets their writings that were given by divine inspiration and recorded in the Holy Scripture. They gave us the “faith ONCE delivered to the saints” (Jude 3). The faith they delivered is able to make us “perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works” (2 Timothy 3:16-17). We don’t need anything beyond the Bible. The teaching of the “church fathers” does not contain one jot or tittle of divine revelation. 

The term “church fathers” is a misnomer that was derived from the Catholic Church’s false doctrine of hierarchical church polity. These men were not “fathers” of the church in any scriptural sense and did not have any divine authority. They were merely church leaders from various places who have left a record of their faith in writing. But the Roman Catholic Church exalted men to authority beyond the bounds designated by Scripture, making them “fathers” over the churches located within entire regions and over the churches of the whole world.

The “church fathers” are grouped into four divisions:
Apostolic Fathers (second century), Ante-Nicene Fathers (second and third centuries), Nicene Fathers (fourth century), and Post-Nicene Fathers (fifth century). Nicene refers to the Council of Nicaea in A.D. 325 that dealt with the issue of Arianism and affirmed the doctrine of Christ’s deity. Thus, the Ante-Nicene Fathers are so named because they lived in the century before this council, and the Post-Nicene, because they lived in the century following the council.

All of the “church fathers” were infected with some false doctrine, and most of them were seriously infected. Even the so-called Apostolic Fathers of the second century were teaching the false gospel that baptism, celibacy, and martyrdom provided forgiveness of sin (Howard Vos,
Exploring Church History, p. 12). And of the later “fathers”--Clement, Origen, Cyril, Jerome, Ambrose, Augustine, Theodore, and John Chrysostom--the same historian admits: “In their lives and teachings we find the seed plot of almost all that arose later. In germ form appear the dogmas of purgatory, transubstantiation, priestly mediation, baptismal regeneration, and the whole sacramental system” (Vos, p. 25). 

In fact, one of the Post-Nicene “fathers” is Leo, the first Roman Catholic “pope”! 

Therefore, the “church fathers” are actually the fathers of the Roman Catholic Church. They are the men who laid the foundation of apostasy that produced Romanism and Greek Orthodoxy.

The New Testament Scriptures warns frequently that there would be an apostasy, a turning from the faith among professing Christians. The apostles and prophets warned said this apostasy had already begun in their day and warned that it would increase as the time of Christ’s return draws nearer.

Paul testified of this in many places, giving us a glimpse into the vicious assault that was already plaguing the work of God. Consider his last message to the pastors at Ephesus (Acts 20:29-30). Paul warned them that false teachers would come from without and would also arise from within their own ranks. Consider his second epistle to Corinth (2 Cor. 11:1-4, 12-15). The false teachers who were active at Corinth were corrupting three of the cardinal doctrines of the New Testament faith, the doctrine of Christ, Salvation, and the Holy Spirit; and the churches were in danger of being overthrown by these errors. Consider Paul’s warnings to Timothy in 1 Timothy 4:1-6 and 2 Timothy 3:1-13 and 4:3-4. 

Peter devoted the entire second chapter of his second epistle to this theme. He warned in verse one that there would be false teachers who hold “damnable heresies,” referring to heresies that damn the soul to eternal hell. If someone denies, for example, the Virgin Birth, Deity, Humanity, Sinlessness, Eternality, Atonement, or Resurrection of Jesus Christ he cannot be saved. Heresies pertaining to such matters are damnable heresies. The corruption of the “doctrine of Christ” results in a “false christ.”

John gave similar warnings in his epistles (1 John 2:18, 19, 22; 4:1-3; 2 John 7-11). 

In addressing the seven churches in Revelation 2-3, the Lord Jesus Christ warned that many of the apostolic churches were already weak and were under severe stress from heretical attacks (Rev. 2:6, 14-15, 20-24; 3:2, 15-17). 

Thus the New Testament faith was being attacked on every hand in the days of the apostles by Gnosticism, Judaism, Nicolaitanism, and other heresies. 

And the apostles and prophets warned that this apostasy would increase. 

Paul said, “But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived” (2 Timothy 3:13). This describes the course of the church age in terms of the spread of heresy!

Therefore it is not surprising to find doctrinal error rampant among the churches even in the early centuries.

Further, we only have a very partial record of the early centuries and the surviving writings have been heavily filtered by Rome. The Roman Catholic Church was in power for a full millennium and its Inquisition reached to the farthest corners of Europe and beyond. Rome did everything in its power to destroy the writings of those who differed with her. Consider the Waldenses. These were Bible-believing Christians who lived in northern Italy and southern France and elsewhere during the Dark Ages and were viciously persecuted by Rome for centuries. Though we know that the Waldenses have a history that begins in the 11th century if not before, their historical record was almost completely destroyed by Rome. Only a handful of Waldensian writings were preserved from all of those centuries. 

It is not surprising, therefore, that the extant writings from the early centuries are ones that are sympathetic to Rome’s doctrines. This does not prove that most of the churches then held to Roman Catholic doctrine. It proves only that those writings sympathetic to Rome were allowed to survive. We know that there were many churches in existence in those early centuries that did not agree with Roman doctrine, because they were persecuted by the Romanists and are mentioned in the writings of the “church fathers.” 

A LOOK AT SOME OF THE CHURCH FATHERS

IGNATIUS (c. 50-110)

Ignatius was the bishop of Antioch in the early second century. He was arrested in about A.D. 110 and sent to Rome for trial and martyrdom. 

He taught that churches should have elders
and a ruling bishop; in other words, he was exalting one bishop over another, whereas in scripture the terms “bishop” and “elder” refer to the same humble office in the assembly (Titus 1:5-7).

He taught that all churches are a part of one universal church. 

He claimed that a church does not have authority to baptize or conduct the Lord’s Supper unless it has a bishop. 

These relatively innocent errors helped prepare the way for more error in the next century.

JUSTIN MARTYR (c. 100 – c. 165)

When Justin embraced Christianity, he held on to some of his pagan philosophy.

He interpreted the Scriptures allegorically and mystically. For example, the 1,000 years mentioned in Revelation 20 is not a literal 1,000 years but stands for something else.


He helped develop the idea of a “middle state” after death that was neither heaven nor hell. Eventually this doctrine became Rome’s purgatory. 

IRENAEUS (c. 125-202)

Irenaeus was a pastor in Lyons, France, who wrote a polemic titled
Against Heresies in about A.D. 185. 

He supported the authority of the bishop as a ruler over many churches. 

He defended church tradition beyond what the Scripture allows. For this reason he is claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as one of their own. 

He taught the Catholic heresy of “real presence,” saying, “The Eucharist becomes the body of Christ.”

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (c. 150 – c. 230)

From 190 to 202, Clement headed the heretical school of Alexandria, Egypt, founded by Pantaenus, which intermingled the Greek philosophy of Plato with Christianity. 

Clement helped develop the false doctrine of purgatory and believed that most men would eventually be saved. 

He denied the unique Deity of Jesus and His atonement, saying, “The Logos of God became man so that you may learn from man how man may become God” (cited from Bernard McGinn,
The Presence of God, Vol. 1 - “The Foundations of Mysticism,” p. 107). Jesus was, therefore, merely the supreme model toward the path of divinity.


TERTULLIAN (c. 155 – c. 255)

Tertullian lived in Carthage in North Africa (located on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea in modern Tunisia, between Libya and Algeria).

Though he fought against Gnosticism, he also exalted the authority of the church beyond that allowed by Scripture. He taught that the church’s authority comes through apostolic succession. 

He believed that the bread of the Lord’s Supper was Christ and worried about dropping crumbs of it on the ground. 

He adopted Montanism, believing that Montanus spoke prophecies by inspiration of God. 

He taught that widows who remarried committed fornication. Thus he exalted the condition of virginity in an unscriptural way, and this heresy was adopted by the Roman Catholic in its monastic system of unmarried monks and nuns and in its doctrine that priests cannot marry. The New Testament encourages younger widows to remarry (1 Tim. 5:14). 


He taught that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins. 

He classified sins into three categories and believed in confession of sins to a bishop. 

He said that the human soul was seen in a vision as “tender, light, and of the colour of air.” He claimed that all human souls were in Adam and are transmitted to us with the taint of original sin upon them. 

He taught that there was a time when the Son of God did not exist and when God was not a Father. 

He taught that Mary was the second Eve who by her obedience remedied the disobedience of the first Eve. This was a stepping stone toward the Roman Catholic Church’s many heresies about Mary.


CYPRIAN (? – 258)

Cyprian was the “bishop of Carthage” in Africa. 

He was tyrannical and wealthy and he wrote against the Novatian churches for their efforts to maintain a pure church membership. He didn’t care if church members gave evidence of the new birth as long as they conformed to external rituals.


Cyprian defended the unscriptural doctrine that certain bishops had authority over many churches and that all pastors must submit to them.

He supported the heresy of infant baptism. 

No wonder Cyprian was made one of the “saints” of the Catholic Church. 

ORIGEN (185-254) 

Though he endured persecution and torture for the cause of Christ under the Roman emperor Decius in 250, and though he defended Christianity against certain heretics, he rejected the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3) and taught many gross heresies. Origen founded in a school in Caesarea from which he expounded his errors far and wide through his students and his writings. 

Origen “disbelieved the full inspiration and infallibility of the Scriptures, holding that the inspired men apprehended and stated many things obscurely” (
Discussions of Robert Lewis Dabney, I, p. 383).

He rejected the literal history of the early chapters in Genesis and of Satan taking the Lord Jesus up to a high mountain and offering him the kingdoms of the world (Will Durant,
The Story of Civilization, Vol. III, p. 614). Durant quotes Origen: “Who is so foolish as to believe that God, like a husbandman, planted a garden in Eden, and placed in it a tree of life ... so that one who tasted of the fruit obtained life?” Origen denied the literal creation described in Genesis 1-2 and the literal fall of Genesis 3. 

He denied the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Origen’s “opinions on the Trinity veered between Sabellianism and Arianism. He expressly denied the consubstantial unity of the Persons and the proper incarnation of the Godhead” (Dabney, I, p. 384).

He believed the Holy Spirit was the first creature made by the Father through the Son. 

He taught that Jesus is a created being and not the eternal Son of God. “He held an aberrant view on the nature of Christ, which gave rise to the later Arian heresy” (“Origen,”
Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics). That Origen believed Jesus Christ had an origin is evident from this statement: “Secondly, that Jesus Christ Himself, who came, was born of the Father before all creatures; and after He had ministered to the Father in the creation of all things,--for through Him were all things made” (Origen, quoted by W.A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers).

He taught that man can become divine as Jesus is divine. “For Christians see that with Jesus human and divine nature begin to be woven together, so that by fellowship with divinity human nature might become divine, not only in Jesus, but also in all those who believe and go on to undertake the life which Jesus taught...” (
Against Celsus, 3:28). This statement is grossly heretical on three counts: It teaches that Jesus’ Deity is not unique but is a model for all men, that salvation is achieved by following Jesus’ teaching, and that man can become divine like Jesus.

Origen taught baptismal regeneration and salvation by works. “After these points, it is taught also that the soul, having a substance and life proper to itself, shall, after its departure from this world, be rewarded according to its merits. It is destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its deeds shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishment, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this” (Origen, cited by W.A. Jurgens,
The Faith of the Early Fathers). “[He] evidently had no clear conception of the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith” (Louis Berkhof, The History of Christian Doctrines, p. 65). This is an important fact, because it means that the gospel Origen taught was a false gospel, and he therefore was under God’s curse (Galatians 1:6-8). 

He believed in a form of purgatory and universalism (all men will be saved), believing that even Satan would be saved. “Now let us see what is meant by the threatening with eternal fire. ... It seems to be indicated by these words that every sinner kindles for himself the flame of his own fire and is not plunged into some fire which was kindled beforehand by someone else or which already existed before him. ... And when this dissolution and tearing asunder of the soul shall have been accomplished by means of the application of fire, no doubt it will afterwards be solidified into a firmer structure and into a restoration of itself” (Origen, cited by W.A. Jurgens,
The Faith of the Early Fathers).

He denied the literal fire of hell. 

He believed that men’s souls are preexistent and that stars and planets possibly have souls. “In regard to the sun, however, and the moon and the stars, as to whether they are living beings or are without life, there is not clear tradition” (Origen, cited by W.A. Jurgens,
The Faith of the Early Fathers).

He denied the bodily resurrection, claiming that the resurrection body is spherical, non-material, and does not have members. “He denied the tangible, physical nature of the resurrection body in clear contrast to the teaching of Scripture” (
Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, “Origen”). He was condemned by the Council of Constantinople on this count.

Origen rejected the testimony of the apostle Paul in Colossians 2:16-23 and lived as an ascetic. He even castrated himself in his foolish zeal for the alleged superior holiness of “celibacy” over marriage.

Origen was also one of the chief fathers of the allegorical method of Bible interpretation, which turns the Bible into a nose of wax to be twisted as the reader sees fit. He claimed that “the Scriptures have little use to those who understand them literally.” He described the literal meaning of Scripture as “bread” and encouraged the student to go beyond this to the “wine” of allegoricalism, whereby one can become intoxicated and transported to heavenly realms. Origen’s commentaries contained a wealth of fanciful interpretations, abounding in “heretical revisals of Scripture” (Frederick Nolan,
Inquiry into the Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, p. 367).

As for Origen’s character, he was “evidently dishonest and tricky, and his judgment most erratic. … As a controversialist, he was wholly unscrupulous (
Discussions of Robert Lewis Dabney, I, p. 383). 


EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA (270-340)

Eusebius collected the writings of Origen and promoted his false teachings. 

Constantine the Great, who had joined together church and state in the Roman Empire and had thereby laid the foundation for the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, hired Eusebius to produce some Greek New Testaments. Many textual authorities have identified Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, the manuscripts so revered by modern textual critics, as two of the copies of the Greek New Testament made by Eusebius. Frederick Nolan and other authorities have charged Eusebius with making many changes in the text of Scripture. 

Many of the noted omissions in the modern versions can be traced to this period, including Mark 16:9-20 and John 8:1-11. After intensive investigation, Frederick Nolan concluded that Eusebius “suppressed those passages in his edition” (Nolan, p. 240). These manuscripts also contained the spurious apocryphal writings, Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabas. Origen considered these two fanciful books as Scripture (Goodspeed,
The Formation of the New Testament, p. 103). 

JEROME (Sophronius Eusebius Hieronymus) (340-420) 

Jerome was called upon by Damasus, the Bishop of Rome, to produce a standard Latin Bible. This was completed between A.D. 383 and 405 and became the Bible adopted by the Roman Catholic Church. It is commonly called the Latin vulgate (meaning common).

Modern textual critic Bruce Metzger says that the Greek manuscripts used by Jerome “apparently belonged to the Alexandrian type of text” (Metzger,
The Text of the New Testament, p. 76). This means they were in the same family as those underlying the modern versions. Kenyon and Robinson also affirm this (Kenyon, The Text of the Greek Bible, p. 88; Robinson, Ancient Versions of the English Bible, p. 113).

This means that the Jerome Latin vulgate adopted by Rome represents the same type of text as the critical Greek text underlying the modern versions. These commonly remove “God” from 1 Timothy 3:16 and contain many other corruptions.

Jerome was deeply infected with false teaching
:

Jerome was deeply committed to the heresy of asceticism, believing the state of virginity to be spiritually superior to that of marriage and demanding that church leaders be unmarried. “... no single individual did so much to make monasticism popular in the higher ranks of society” (James Heron, The Evolution of Latin Christianity, 1919, p. 58). He lived a hermetic life in disobedience to the Bible’s command to go forth and preach the gospel to every creature (Mk. 16:15).

Jerome believed in the veneration of “holy relics” and the bones of dead Christians (Heron, pp. 276, 77). 

Jerome “took a leading and influential part in ‘opening the floodgates’ for the invocation of saints,” teaching “that the saints in heaven hear the prayers of men on earth, intercede on their behalf and send them help from above (Heron, pp. 287, 88).

Jerome taught that Mary is the counterpart of Eve, as Christ was the counterpart of Adam, and that through her obedience Mary became instrumental in helping to redeem the human race (Heron, p. 294). He taught that Mary is a perpetual virgin. 

Jerome believed in the blessing of “holy water,” which became a major practice in the Roman Catholic Church (Heron, p. 306). 

Jerome justified the death penalty for “heretics” (Heron, p. 323). 

As for his spirit and character, Jerome is described, even by an unwise historian who had high respect for him, with these words: “such irritability and bitterness of temper, such vehemence of uncontrolled passion, such an intolerant and persecuting spirit, and such inconstancy of conduct” (Philip Schaff,
History of the Christian Church, III, p. 206).

Jerome had a particularly hateful attitude toward those that followed the simple New Testament faith and refused to accept the heresies that he and his fellows were preaching. His writings against these men were characterized by the most hateful, vicious sort of language. Vigilantius, Jovinian, and Helvidius were some of the men upon whom Jerome railed. These men rejected the false traditions that were being added by the early leaders of the Roman Church, including infant baptism, enforced celibacy, worship of martyrs and relics, and the sinlessness and perpetual virginity of Mary. Jerome heaped abuse upon these men, calling them dogs, maniacs, monsters, asses, stupid fools, two-legged asses, gluttons, servants of the devil, madmen, “useless vessels which should be shivered by the iron rod of apostolic authority.” He said Helvidius had a “fetid mouth, fraught with a putrid stench, against the relics and ashes of the martyrs.” Baptist historian Thomas Armitage observed, “The pen of Jerome was rendered very offensive by his grinding tyranny and crabbed temper. No matter how wrong he was, he could not brook contradiction” (
A History of the Baptists, I, p. 207).


It is obvious that Jerome had imbibed many of the false teachings and attitudes that eventually became the entrenched dogmas and practices of the Roman Catholic Church. 

AMBROSE (339-397)

Ambrose was bishop of Milan, in Italy, from 374-397. Because of his commitment to many early doctrinal heresies, his writings have been appealed to by popes and Catholic councils. Ambrose had a strong influence upon Augustine. The Catholic Church made him a saint and a doctor of the church.

Ambrose used the allegorical-mystical method of Bible interpretation, having been influenced by Origen and Philo. 

He taught that Christians should be devoted to Mary, encouraged monasticism, and believed in prayers to the saints. 

He believed the church has the power to forgive sins. 

He believed the Lord’s Supper is a sacrifice of Christ. 

He taught that virginity is holier than marriage and whenever possible he encouraged young women not to marry. His teaching in this helped pave the way for the Catholic monastic system. 

He offered prayers for the dead. 

AUGUSTINE (354-430)

Augustine was polluted with many false doctrines and helped lay the foundation for the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. For this reason Rome has honored Augustine as one of the “doctors of the church.”

He was a persecutor and one of the fathers of Rome’s Inquisition. He instigated persecutions against the Bible-believing Donatists who were striving to maintain biblical churches and require that church members give evidence of repentance and regeneration. 

Augustine was one of the fathers of a-millennialism, allegorizing Bible prophecy and teaching that the Catholic Church is the new Israel and the kingdom of God. 

He taught that the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper are means of salvation. 

The ‘council’ of Mela, in Numidia, A.D. 416, composed of merely fifteen persons and presided over by Augustine, decreed: “Also, it is the pleasure of the bishops in order that whoever denies that infants newly born of their mothers, are to be baptized or says that baptism is administered for the remission of their own sins, but not on account of original sin, delivered from Adam, and to be expiated by the laver of regeneration, BE ACCURSED” (Wall,
The History of Infant Baptism, I, 265). Augustine thus taught that infants should be baptized and that the baptism took away their sin. He called all who rejected infant baptism “infidels” and “cursed.”

He taught that Mary did not commit sin and promoted her “veneration.” He believed that Mary played a vital role in salvation (Augustine, Sermon 289, cited in Durant,
The Story of Civilization, IV, p. 69). 

He promoted the myth of purgatory. 

He accepted the doctrine of “celibacy” for “priests,” supporting the decree of “Pope” Siricius of 387 which required that any priest that married or refused to separate from his wife should be disciplined. 

He exalted the authority of the church over that of the Bible, declaring, “I should not believe the gospel unless I were moved to do so by the authority of the Catholic Church” (quoted by John Paul II,
Augustineum Hyponensem, Apostolic Letter, Aug. 28, 1986, www.cin.org/jp2.ency/augustin.html).

He believed that the true interpretation of Scripture is derived from the declaration of church councils (Augustin,
De Vera Religione, xxiv, p. 45).

He interpreted the early chapters of Genesis figuratively (Dave Hunt, “Calvin and Augustine: Two Jonahs Who Sink the Ship,”
Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views by Dave Hunt and James White, 2004, p. 230).

He taught the heresy of sovereign election, in that God has pre-ordained some for salvation and others for damnation and that the grace of God is irresistible for the true elect. By his own admission, John Calvin in the 16th century derived his TULIP theology on the “sovereignty of God” from Augustine. Calvin said: “If I were inclined to compile a whole volume from Augustine, I could easily show my readers, that I need no words but his” (Calvin,
Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, chap. 22).

He taught the heresy of apostolic succession from Peter (Dave Hunt,
A Woman Rides the Beast, p. 230).


JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (347-407)

Chrysostom was a leader in Antioch, in the Greek part of the Catholic church of that day, and became “patriarch” of Constantinople in 398. 

He believed in the “real presence” of the mass, that the bread literally becomes Jesus Christ. 

He taught that church tradition can be equal in authority to the Scriptures. 

CYRIL (376-444)

Cyril was the “patriarch” of Alexandria and supported many of the errors that led to the formation of the Catholic Church. 

He promoted the veneration of Mary and called her the
Theotokos, or bearer of God. 

In 412, Cyril instigated persecution against the Donatist Christians.

A WARNING OF THE POWER OF THE CHURCH FATHERS TO LEAD TO ROME

Having seen some of the heresies that leavened the “church fathers,” it is not surprising that a non-critical study of their writings can lead to Rome. That is where they were all headed! And for the most part we have only looked at the more doctrinally sound “church fathers”! 

In the late nineteenth century
JOHN HENRY NEWMAN (1801-90) walked into the Roman Catholic Church through the door of the church fathers. Newman, an Anglican priest and one of the leaders of the Oxford Movement in the Church of England, is one of the most famous of the Protestant converts to Rome. He said that two of the factors in his conversion were his fascination with the church fathers and his study of the lives of the “English saints,” referring to Catholic mystics such as Joan of Norwich. He converted to Rome in 1845 and was made a Cardinal by Pope Leo XIII in 1879. 

In more recent days many are following Newman’s lead. 

SCOTT AND KIMBERLY HAHN, Presbyterians who joined the Roman Catholic Church, were influenced by the church fathers. In their influential autobiography, Rome Sweet Rome, Kimberly recalls how that Scott studied the “church fathers” when he was still a Presbyterian minister.

“Scott gained many insights from the early Church Fathers, some of which he shared in his sermons. This was rather unexpected for both of us, because we had hardly ever read the early Church Fathers when we were in seminary. In fact, in our senior year we had complained loudly to friends about possible creeping Romanism when a course was offered by an Anglican priest on the early Church Fathers. Yet here was Scott quoting them in sermons! One night Scott came out of his study and said, ‘Kimberly, I have to be honest. I don’t know how long we are going to be Presbyterians. We may become Episcopalians’” (Rome Sweet Rome, p. 56).


In fact, they became Roman Catholics, and the influence of the “church fathers” on that decision is obvious.

In 1985
THOMAS HOWARD became another famous Protestant convert to Rome. In his 1984 book Evangelical Is Not Enough Howard had called upon evangelicals to study the church fathers. Howard was a professor at Gordon College for 15 years and is from a family of prominent evangelicals. His father, Philip, was editor of the Sunday School Times; his brother David Howard was head of the World Evangelical Fellowship; and his sister Elizabeth married the famous missionary Jim Elliot, who was martyred by the Auca Indians in Ecuador. 

The church fathers were also instrumental in the conversion of
PETER KREEFT to Rome from the Dutch Reformed denomination. Kreeft, a very influential Catholic apologist, studied the church fathers as a student at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He writes:

“My adventurous half rejoiced when I discovered in the early Church such Catholic elements as the centrality of the Eucharist, the Real Presence, prayers to saints, devotion to Mary, an insistence on visible unity, and apostolic succession. Furthermore, THE CHURCH FATHERS JUST ‘SMELLED’ MORE CATHOLIC THAN PROTESTANT, especially St. Augustine, my personal favorite and a hero to most Protestants too. It seemed very obvious that if Augustine or Jerome or Ignatius of Antioch or Anthony of the Desert, or Justin Martyr, or Clement of Alexandria, or Athanasius were alive today they would be Catholics, not Protestants” (“Hauled Aboard the Ark,” http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/hauled-aboard.htm). 


Kreeft is absolutely right. Many of the “church fathers” do smell more Catholic than Protestant! 

The books
Surprised by Truth edited by Patrick Madrid and The Road to Rome edited by Dwight Longenecker and Journeys Home edited by Marcus Grodi contain many examples of this phenomenon. One of the testimonies is by SHARON MANN, who says, 

“I started reading the early Church Fathers and realized that whatever they believed, they surely were not Protestant. Catholic themes peppered the landscape of Church history. I couldn’t deny it...” (Journeys Home, 1997, p. 88).


This is true, of course. Catholic themes
do pepper the landscape of the “church fathers.” What she should have understood is that they were not doctrinally sound and they have absolutely no authority. Whatever they were, they are not our examples and guides. She should have compared them to the infallible truth in the Bible and rejected them as heretics. 

Instead, she allowed the “church fathers” to stir up her curiosity about Roman Catholicism and she ended up at a Mass. There she had a powerful emotional experience when the crowd knelt to idolatrously “adore” the blessed host as it passed by in its “monstrance.” She began weeping and her throat tightened and she couldn’t swallow. She said:

“If the Lord was truly passing by, then I wanted to adore and worship Him, but if He wasn’t, I was afraid to be idolatrous. That weekend left a very powerful imprint on my heart, and I found myself running out of good arguments to stay Protestant. My heart was longing to be Catholic and be restored to the unity with all Christendom” (Journeys Home, p. 89).


When she speaks of the Lord passing by, she is referring to the Catholic doctrine that the wafer or host of the Mass becomes the actual body and blood of Jesus when it is blessed by the priest and thereafter it is worshipped as Jesus Himself. Following the Mass the host is placed in a box called the tabernacle and Catholics pray to it. The host is the Catholic
Jesus

Roger Oakland describes an experience he had in Rome at the feast of Corpus Christi when Pope Benedict XVI worshipped at the Major Mary basilica:

“Finally, after almost three hours of standing and waiting, the pope and his entourage arrived. The pope was carrying the Eucharistic Jesus in a monstrance. Earlier that day during a mass at St. Peter’s, this Eucharistic Jesus had been created from a wafer that had been consecrated. Later in the say, the same Jesus was transported to St. John’s for another ceremony. Finally, for a finale, the pope transported Jesus to the Major Church of Mary. The pope took the monstrance, ascended the stairs of the church, and held Jesus up for the masses to see. Then this Jesus was placed on an altar temporarily erected at the top of the steps. A cardinal then opened the glass window of the monstrance, removed the consecrated wafer (Jesus), and hustled him inside the church where he placed Jesus in a tabernacle. This experience gave me a sobering reminder of this terrible apostasy” (Faith Undone, p. 126).


Mother Teresa exemplified this. She stated plainly that her Christ was the wafer of the Mass. Consider the following quotes from her speech to the Worldwide Retreat for Priests, October 1984, in Vatican City:

 “I remember the time a few years back, when the president of Yeman asked us to send some of our sisters to his country. I told him that this was difficult because for so many years no chapel was allowed in Yemen for saying a public mass, and no one was allowed to function there publicly as a priest. I explained that I wanted to give them sisters, but the trouble was that, without a priest, without Jesus going with them, our sisters couldn’t go anywhere. It seems that the president of Yemen had some kind of a consultation, and the answer that came back to us was, ‘Yes, you can send a priest with the sisters!’ I was so struck with the thought that ONLY WHEN THE PRIEST IS THERE CAN WE HAVE OUR ALTAR AND OUR TABERNACLE AND OUR JESUS. ONLY THE PRIEST CAN PUT JESUS THERE FOR US” (Mother Teresa, cited in Be Holy: God’s First Call to Priests Today, edited by Tom Forrest, C.Ss.R., 1987, p. 109).

“One day she [a girl working in Calcutta] came, putting her arms around me, and saying, ‘I have found Jesus.’ ... ‘And just what were you doing when you found him?’ I asked. She answered that after 15 years she had finally gone to confession, and received Holy Communion from the hands of a priest. Her face was changed, and she was smiling. She was a different person because THAT PRIEST HAD GIVEN HER JESUS” (Mother Teresa,
Be Holy, p. 74).


It is a great spiritual blindness to think that the Lord Jesus Christ can be worshipped legitimately in the form of a piece of bread!

A more recent convert to Rome is
FRANCIS BECKWITH, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society. In May 2007 he tendered his resignation from this organization after converting to Rome. His journey to Rome was sparked by reading the church fathers. He said, “In January, at the suggestion of a dear friend, I began reading the Early Church Fathers as well as some of the more sophisticated works on justification by Catholic authors. I became convinced that the Early Church is more Catholic than Protestant...” (“Evangelical Theological Society President Converts,” The Berean Call, May 7, 2007).

Again, he is correct in observing that the church fathers were very Catholic-like, but that proves nothing. The truth is not found in the church fathers but in the Bible itself. 

This is a loud warning to those who have an ear to hear the truth. We don’t need to study the “church fathers.” We need to make certain that we are born again and have the indwelling Spirit as our Teacher (1 John 2:27), then we need to study the Bible diligently and walk closely with Christ and become so thoroughly grounded in the truth that we will not be led astray by the wiles of the devil and by all of the fierce winds of error that are blowing in our day.

“That we
henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive” (Ephesians 4:14).



TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: apostasy; error; rome; sin
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To: RaceBannon

The Catholic Church came before the 4 gospels. There are 27 books in the NT because THE CATHOLIC CHURCH determined this number, not Jimmy Swaggart and not anyone on FR. Without the Catholic Church, first safeguarding the Bible, then compiling and canonizing the Bible, there would be no Bible. History is a hell of thing to deny, but you can give it your best shot.


61 posted on 03/08/2015 12:02:08 PM PDT by NKP_Vet
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To: RaceBannon; vladimir998; All
Since this thread appears to be on the same topic as one I inadvertently got involved with elsewhere, I think it would save me some time just to share one of my posts with a Catholic interoloctor to demonstrate that the "door of the Church Fathers" can actually lead to Protestantism. For example, I had made the point that I had actually become a Calvinist by reading Augustine. I didn't start reading Calvin until Augustine had already convinced me of all his principles. Mind you, that doesn't mean Augustine matches up everywhere-- but it does mean that Augustine held to the entirety of TULIP, thus demonstrating that it is not true that our doctrines were novel with Luther.

So anyway, here is my post to Vladimir in another thread. The italics are his comments, followed by my replies: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3265374/posts?page=105

But it isn’t.

First of all, your bloggers are incompetent. This one, for example, cites this quotation to prove that Augustine denies the Final Preserverence of the Elect:

"I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling. Therefore it is uncertain whether any one has received this gift so long as he is still alive. For if he fall before he dies, he is, of course, said not to have persevered; and most truly is it said." (On The Gift Of Perseverance)

But the fool does not realize that Augustine here calls Perseverance to be a "gift of God." And if it is a "gift," that means it is given gratuitously, by Augustine's own definition-- that is, not because of our faithfulness or our good works, but by the unmerited grace of God. According to Augustine, since he held to baptismal regeneration, people who were regenerated could lose their salvation; but Augustine is also a Monergist (which is what Calvinism is built on!), and thus whether a person falls away or not depends on whether or not God upholds them by grace. Thus, according to Augustine, the Elect of God can never lose their salvation; nor can anyone lose their salvation because they resisted effectual grace, but, rather, they lose their salvation because they are not given grace at all.

"... the human will does not obtain grace by freedom, but obtains freedom by grace; when the feeling of delight has been imparted through. the same grace, the human will is formed to endure; it is strengthened with unconquerable fortitude; controlled by grace, it never will perish, but, if grace forsake it, it will straightway fall; by the Lord's free mercy it is converted to good, and once converted it perseveres in good; the direction of the human will toward good, and after direction its continuation in good, depend solely upon God's will, not upon any merit of man. Thus there is left to man such free will, if we please so to call it, as he elsewhere describes: that except through grace the will can neither be converted to God nor abide in God; and whatever it can do it is able to do only through grace. "(Augustine, Aurelius. Augustine's Writings on Grace and Free WIll (Kindle Locations 45-46). Monergism Books. Kindle Edition.)

“But of such as these [the Elect] none perishes, because of all that the Father has given Him, He will lose none. John 6:39 Whoever, therefore, is of these does not perish at all; nor was any who perishes ever of these. For which reason it is said, They went out from among us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would certainly have continued with us. 1 John 2:19”. (Augustine, Treatise on the Predestination of the Saints) “I assert, therefore, that the perseverance by which we persevere in Christ even to the end is the gift of God; and I call that the end by which is finished that life wherein alone there is peril of falling.” (Augustine, On the Perseverance of the Saints)

"But you write that "these brethren will not have this perseverance so preached as that it cannot be obtained by prayer or lost by obstinacy." In this they are little careful in considering what they say. For we are speaking of that perseverance whereby one perseveres unto the end, and if this is given, one does persevere unto the end; but if one does not persevere unto the end, it is not given, which I have already sufficiently discussed above. (Ibid, Ch. 11)

"Will any one dare to say that this perseverance is not the gift of God, and that so great a possession as this is ours in such wise that if any one have it the apostle could not say to him, 'For what hast thou which thou hast not received?'[ 2] since he has this in such a manner as that he has not received it?" To this, indeed, we are not able to deny, that perseverance in good, progressing even to the end, is also a great gift of God; and that it exists not save it come from Him of whom it is written, "Every best gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights." (Augustine, Treatise on Rebuke and Grace, Ch. 10)

Your other bloggers make the same mistake for some odd reason, I suspect more out of laziness than malice. Your "protestant" blogger also makes the very weird assertion:

The Augustinian definition of double predestination, at least as explained by later writers, is not Calvinistic. Augustine himself did not focus much on the double aspect of predestination and explain what the predestination of the reprobate means. However, the later Augustinian tradition as developed by Prosper of Aquitaine, Fulgentius of Ruspe, and ultimately the Council of Orange, when defining double predestination always made the point that when men are predestined unto death, they are only predestined based upon foreseen future demerits.

Now, who cares what "later Augustinian" writers have to say about it (though this fool does not even consider them all, just as Jansen or others). Augustine did not believe reprobation or predestination was based on "foreseen merits", but explicitly denies this:

“And, moreover, who will be so foolish and blasphemous as to say that God cannot change the evil wills of men, whichever, whenever, and wheresoever He chooses, and direct them to what is good? But when He does this He does it of mercy; when He does it not, it is of justice that He does it not for “He has mercy on whom He will have mercy, and whom He will He hardens.” And when the apostle said this, he was illustrating the grace of God, in connection with which he had just spoken of the twins in the womb of Rebecca, who “being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of Him that calls, it was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.” And in reference to this matter he quotes another prophetic testimony: “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” But perceiving how what he had said might affect those who could not penetrate by their understanding the depth of this grace: “What shall we say then?” he says: “Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.” For it seems unjust that, in the absence of any merit or demerit, from good or evil works, God should love the one and hate the other. Now, if the apostle had wished us to understand that there were future good works of the one, and evil works of the other, which of course God foreknew, he would never have said, not of works, but, of future works, and in that way would have solved the difficulty, or rather there would then have been no difficulty to solve. As it is, however, after answering, God forbid; that is, God forbid that there should be unrighteousness with God; he goes on to prove that there is no unrighteousness in God’s doing this, and says: “For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.” “ (Augustine, The Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Chapter 98. Predestination to Eternal Life is Wholly of God’s Free Grace.)

Augustine also explicitly contradicts your modern day Popes on the subject of universal grace. For example, compare how your Popes deal with the interpretation of 1 Tim 2:4, and then read Augustine's take:

"In the New Testament, the universal salvific will of God is closely connected to the sole mediation of Christ: '[God] desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God; there is also one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ, who gave himself as a ransom for all' (1 Tim 2:4-6)." (Cardinal Ratzinger, Dominus Jesus, n. 13)

"Vatican II adds that the Church is 'a sacrament. . . of the unity of all mankind.' [Lumen Gentium, n. 1] Obviously it is a question of the unity -- which the human race which in itself is differentiated in various ways -- has from God and in God. This unity has its roots in the mystery of creation and acquires a new dimension in the mystery of the Redemption, which is ordered to universal salvation. Since God 'wishes all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth,' [1 Tim 2:4] the Redemption includes all humanity and in a certain way all of creation. In the same universal dimension of Redemption the Holy Spirit is acting, by virtue of the 'departure of Christ.' Therefore the Church, rooted through her own mystery in the Trinitarian plan of salvation with good reason regards herself as the 'sacrament of the unity of the whole human race.' She knows that she is such through the power of the Holy Spirit, of which power she is a sign and instrument in the fulfillment of God's salvific plan." (Pope John Paul II, Dominum et Vivificantem, n. 64)

Now read Augustine:

“Or, it is said, “Who will have all men to be saved;” not that there is no man whose salvation He does not will (for how, then, explain the fact that He was unwilling to work miracles in the presence of some who, He said, would have repented if He had worked them?), but that we are to understand by “all men,” the human race in all its varieties of rank and circumstances,—kings, subjects; noble, plebeian, high, low, learned, and unlearned; the sound in body, the feeble, the clever, the dull, the foolish, the rich, the poor, and those of middling circumstances; males, females, infants, boys, youths; young, middle-aged, and old men; of every tongue, of every fashion, of all arts, of all professions, with all the innumerable differences of will and conscience, and whatever else there is that makes a distinction among men. For which of all these classes is there out of which God does not will that men should be saved in all nations through His only-begotten Son, our Lord, and therefore does save them; for the Omnipotent cannot will in vain, whatsoever He may will? Now the apostle had enjoined that prayers should be made for all men, and had especially added, “For kings, and for all that are in authority,” who might be supposed, in the pride and pomp of worldly station, to shrink from the humility of the Christian faith. Then saying, “For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour,” that is, that prayers should be made for such as these, he immediately adds, as if to remove any ground of despair, “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth” [I Tim. 2:1-4]. God, then, in His great condescension has judged it good to grant to the prayers of the humble the salvation of the exalted; and assuredly we have many examples of this. Our Lord, too, makes use of the same mode of speech in the Gospel, when He says to the Pharisees: “Ye tithe mint, and rue, and every herb” [Luke 11:42]. For the Pharisees did not tithe what belonged to others, nor all the herbs of all the inhabitants of other lands. As, then, in this place we must understand by “every herb,” every kind of herbs, so in the former passage we may understand by “all men,” every sort of men. And we may interpret it in any other way we please, so long as we are not compelled to believe that the omnipotent God has willed anything to be done which was not done: for setting aside all ambiguities, if “He hath done all that He pleased in heaven and in earth” [Ps. 115:3]. as the psalmist sings of Him, He certainly did not will to do anything that He hath not done.” (Augustine, Enchiridion on Faith, Hope and Love, Ch. 103. Interpretation of the Expression in I Tim. 2:4: “Who Will Have All Men to Be Saved”.)

This is also exactly the Calvinistic interpretation of this same verse.

Your links have a whole lot of other claims in them that would take too long for me to sort out. However, I think this is good enough to demonstrate that Augustine was a Monergist, and therefore was in opposition to Romanist Synergism/works-righteousness.

62 posted on 03/08/2015 12:25:13 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: RaceBannon; af_vet_1981

It is hard isn’t it, Race, having to endure Papists “pulling the Bible on us,”

These who choose the ECF over scripture.

Who, in thread after thread, attack Sola Scriptura.

And in support of the Papacy, which for hundreds of years KEPT PEOPLE FROM THE SCRIPTURE… turn in your Bibles or be arrested.

FRoman Catholics deny this, of course, but Mr. Rogers, in post 43, on this thread…

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3263031/posts?q=1&;page=51

states the truth. This quote about “Biblia Prohibita” from his post, I thought most striking:

“The first index published by a pope (Paul IV), in 1559, prohibited under the title of Biblia prohibita a number of Latin editions as well as the publication and possession of translations of the Bible in German, French, Spanish, Italian, English, or Dutch, without the permission of the sacred office of the Roman Inquisition (Reusch, ut sup., i, 264). In 1584 Pius IV published the index prepared by the commission mentioned above.

Herein ten rules are laid down, of which the fourth reads thus: ‘Inasmuch as it is manifest from experience that if the Holy Bible, translated into the vulgar tongue, be indiscriminately allowed to every one, the rashness of men will cause more evil than good to arise from it, it is, on this point, referred to the judgment of the bishops or inquisitors, who may, by the advice of the priest or confessor, permit the reading of the Bible translated into the vulgar tongue by Catholic authors, to those persons whose faith and piety they apprehend will be augmented and not injured by it; and this permission must be had in writing. But if any shall have the presumption to read or possess it without such permission, he shall not receive absolution until he have first delivered up such Bible to the ordinary.’”

Observing how these Papists handle the scripture, is almost like Obama when he, on occasion, has tried to use the scripture on us. What a joke. Neither Obama or these anti-Sola Scriptura’s know what they are talking about.


63 posted on 03/08/2015 12:26:22 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: sasportas

Correction. It was Mr. Rogers in post 55, in this thread…

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/3263031/posts?q=1&;page=51

Post 55 not post 43.


64 posted on 03/08/2015 12:34:40 PM PDT by sasportas
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To: RaceBannon; All

The OP mentions the controversy with the Donatists and also asserts that Augustine believed in common Romanist tropes about the authority of the church above the scripture.

Interestingly, when Augustine actually debated with the Donatists, he did not do so the way Roman Papists do, always thumping their chest about their authority, but directly appealed to the authority of scripture:

“The question has been proposed: Is the Church of Christ among the Catholics or among the Donatists? This needs to be determined from specific and clear citations in Holy Scripture. First, evidence is brought forth from the Old Testament and then from the New Testament.” (Augustine, Introduction, On the Unity of the Church. My emphasis)

. . .

“But, as I had begun to say, let us not listen to “you say this, I say that” but let us listen to “the Lord says this.” Certainly, there are the Lord’s books, on whose authority we both agree, to which we concede, and which we serve; there we seek the Church, there we argue our case” (Chapter 5). (My emphasis)

Webster says that Augustine basically says,

“Since both parties adhere to the truth of Scripture and believe them to be the word of God, it is scripture which should be the final arbiter.”

Augustine writes, “just as this doesn’t need an interpreter” several times in his appeal to the Donatists. Augustine believed that theses Scriptures were clear and perspicuous, and did not need an infallible interpreter to settle the dispute.

In one of his sermons Augustine gives this exegesis of the rock of Matthew 16:

“Remember, in this man Peter, the rock. He’s the one, you see, who on being questioned by the Lord about who the disciples said he was, replied, ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ On hearing this, Jesus said to him, ‘Blessed are you, Simon Bar Jona, because flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but my Father who is in heaven. And I tell you’...‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15–19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ. Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer”
(John Rotelle, O.S.A., Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Volume III/6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2014/12/augustines-unity-of-church-finally.html

Also, on the concept of purgatory, it appears Augustine speculated on the topic early on, but then later denied it. On the “eucharist necessary for salvation,” Augustine did not believe that participating in the Lord’s table granted salvation. He believed that salvation was given through faith in Jesus Christ which spiritually fulfilled the command to eat Christ’s flesh and blood. He did believe Christians were obligated to be baptized and to attend the Lord’s supper physically, but only because these are commands, not because he thought that the physical act of itself was effectual to salvation.


65 posted on 03/08/2015 12:35:51 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

““But the sacrament of baptism is undoubtedly the sacrament of regenation: Wherefore, as the man who has never lived cannot die, and he who has never died cannot rise again, so he who has never been born cannot be born again. From which the conclusion arises, that no one who has not been born could possibly have been born again in his father. Born again, however, a man must be, after he has been born; because, ‘Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God’ Even an infant, therefore, must be imbued with the sacrament of regeneration, lest without it his would be an unhappy exit out of this life; and this baptism is not administered except for the remission of sins. And so much does Christ show us in this very passage; for when asked, How could such things be? He reminded His questioner of what Moses did when he lifted up the serpent. Inasmuch, then, as infants are by the sacrament of baptism conformed to the death of Christ, it must be admitted that they are also freed from the serpent’s poisonous bite, unless we willfully wander from the rule of the Christian faith. This bite, however, they did not receive in their own actual life, but in him on whom the wound was primarily inflicted.”
(On Forgiveness of Sin, and Baptism, 43:27

I see the misrepresentation of St Augustine continues. he believed as all Christians have for 2,000 years in baptismal regeneration. the reader as the above quote clearly shows. he was a CATHOLIC BISHOP, we should not be surprised he believed and taught the CATHOLIC FAITH.

It is not worth my time to refute the other misrepresentation, but the reader has been put on notice. deception abounds.


66 posted on 03/08/2015 2:21:39 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

Saint Augustine, Doctor, (died A.D. 430): “No man can find salvation except in the Catholic Church. Outside the Catholic Church one can have everything except salvation. One can have honour, one can have the sacraments, one can sing alleluia, one can answer amen, one can have faith in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and preach it too, but never can one find salvation except in the Catholic Church.” (Sermon to the People of Caesaria

the above is what St Augustine taught and believed.


67 posted on 03/08/2015 2:25:47 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
I see the misrepresentation of St Augustine continues. he believed as all Christians have for 2,000 years in baptismal regeneration.

And? But you know what you don't believe? TULIP.

the above is what St Augustine taught and believed.

Augustine believed the Church was made up of all believers, not centered on Rome.

68 posted on 03/08/2015 2:38:45 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Petrosius

**I and millions of other Catholics have studied the Bible for centuries.**

How old ARE you???


69 posted on 03/08/2015 2:39:32 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
It is not worth my time to refute the other misrepresentation, but the reader has been put on notice. deception abounds.

You've been at this for awhile, and you know the one thing you have never actually done? Contradict me on the topic of Augustine and his embrace of TULIP.

70 posted on 03/08/2015 2:39:46 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: johngrace

**The spirit of God in Jesus was born in the flesh by a woman.**

God has no beginning, so that statement is false, or just poorly worded.

Remember Peter, the one you claim as first pope?.....well this is his description:

“..Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God......This Jesus hath God raised up,......know assuredly, that GOD hath MADE that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.” Acts 2:22,32,36

God made him both Lord and Christ, not Mary. God simply used her to make the tabernacle of flesh, that the already existing soul of Christ would dwell in.

“How God annointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him......Him God raised up.....it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of the quick and dead....”.

God annointed Jesus with the Holy Ghost and with power, not Mary.

Neither Jesus, nor the apostles, EVER used the term ‘God the Son’, for they fully understood the Godhead. Jesus and the apostles always used the term ‘Son of God’. They taught that God was IN Christ, not that God was Christ. I trust their understanding, not the interpretations of men (and women).


71 posted on 03/08/2015 3:05:53 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

if one reads the quote in #66, it refutes TULIP.

this is akin to Mormons baptizing Augustine into the Mormon Church, just as funny, just as sad.


72 posted on 03/08/2015 3:18:51 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: af_vet_1981

**and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.**

So where is the second witness, to Mary spending 3 1/2 years in the wilderness, after Jesus ascended to heaven? I thought she was in the upper room when the Holy Ghost fell on Pentecost.

The nation of Israel, and Jerusalem, are addressed in the feminine quite a lot in the scriptures. Rev. 12 is simply another one of those cases.


73 posted on 03/08/2015 3:35:26 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: NKP_Vet

**Without the Catholic Church, first safeguarding the Bible**

Kinda like the ravens, and then the widow in Zarephath, preserved Elijah. Also, the Egyptians preserved Abraham, and then Israel from drought, and then the child Jesus from Herod.


74 posted on 03/08/2015 3:43:59 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
if one reads the quote in #66, it refutes TULIP.

Are you capable of explaining in some logical way how it does?

75 posted on 03/08/2015 5:18:19 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Greetings_Puny_Humans

.....unless we willfully wonder from the Christian Faith”

There goes the P in TULIP


76 posted on 03/08/2015 5:35:43 PM PDT by one Lord one faith one baptism
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To: one Lord one faith one baptism
There goes the P in TULIP

My initial post puts it right back in

77 posted on 03/08/2015 5:40:28 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans (I mostly come out at night... mostly.)
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To: Zuriel
**and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.**

So where is the second witness, to Mary spending 3 1/2 years in the wilderness, after Jesus ascended to heaven? I thought she was in the upper room when the Holy Ghost fell on Pentecost.

The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth? And his brethren envied him; but his father observed the saying.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Deuteronomy, Catholic chapter twenty nine, Protestant verse twenty nine,
Genesis, Catholic chapter thirty seven, Protestant verses nine to eleven
Matthew, Catholic chapter twenty three, Protestant verses thirty seven to thirty none,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

The nation of Israel, and Jerusalem, are addressed in the feminine quite a lot in the scriptures. Rev. 12 is simply another one of those cases.

Jerusalem does not fit well at all, having no child and rejecting the Messiah in his generation. Messiah was not born to, nor in, Jerusalem. Furthermore, it is clear from Joseph's dream that the twelve stars adorning the woman are the twelve tribes of Israel. Therefore the woman herself cannot be Israel or Jerusalem. Miriam, however, did give birth to the Messiah, and it is altogether fitting that she should wear a crown of twelve stars, the twelve tribes of Israel, and be clothed in honor with the Jewish Patriarchs (sun) Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as well as the Jewish Matriarchs (moon) Sarah, Rebecca, Leah, and Rachel.

78 posted on 03/08/2015 6:30:26 PM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began.)
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To: RaceBannon
Alternate and more accurate title:

Welcome to Bizzaro World...Where Up is Down and What Is Isn't.


79 posted on 03/08/2015 7:43:41 PM PDT by don-o (He will not share His glory and He will NOT be mocked! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever!)
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To: af_vet_1981

That’s a lot of interpretting right there.

Oh, Israel is the woman, all right. “He came”..(born)..”to his own, and his own received him not”.

**Joseph’s dream** has Joseph (not Judah) as the center of attention. Mary was of Judah, and therefore was one of the “twelve stars” of the nation of Israel.

After she died, was Mary in purgatory for 3 1/2 years befored the ‘assumption’? Or am I making a poor assumption?

What a tangled web we weave......

Thanks for replying though!


80 posted on 03/08/2015 9:07:17 PM PDT by Zuriel (Acts 2:38,39....Do you believe it?)
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