Posted on 03/07/2015 2:48:45 PM PST by RaceBannon
He interpreted the Scriptures allegorically and mystically. For example, the 1,000 years mentioned in Revelation 20 is not a literal 1,000 years but stands for something else.
He helped develop the idea of a “middle state” after death that was neither heaven nor hell. Eventually this doctrine became Rome’s purgatory.
IRENAEUS (c. 125-202)
Irenaeus was a pastor in Lyons, France, who wrote a polemic titled Against Heresies in about A.D. 185.
He supported the authority of the bishop as a ruler over many churches.
He defended church tradition beyond what the Scripture allows. For this reason he is claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as one of their own.
He taught the Catholic heresy of “real presence,” saying, “The Eucharist becomes the body of Christ.”
CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA (c. 150 – c. 230)
From 190 to 202, Clement headed the heretical school of Alexandria, Egypt, founded by Pantaenus, which intermingled the Greek philosophy of Plato with Christianity.
Clement helped develop the false doctrine of purgatory and believed that most men would eventually be saved.
He denied the unique Deity of Jesus and His atonement, saying, “The Logos of God became man so that you may learn from man how man may become God” (cited from Bernard McGinn, The Presence of God, Vol. 1 - “The Foundations of Mysticism,” p. 107). Jesus was, therefore, merely the supreme model toward the path of divinity.
TERTULLIAN (c. 155 – c. 255)
Tertullian lived in Carthage in North Africa (located on the coast of the Mediterranean Sea in modern Tunisia, between Libya and Algeria).
Though he fought against Gnosticism, he also exalted the authority of the church beyond that allowed by Scripture. He taught that the church’s authority comes through apostolic succession.
He believed that the bread of the Lord’s Supper was Christ and worried about dropping crumbs of it on the ground.
He adopted Montanism, believing that Montanus spoke prophecies by inspiration of God.
He taught that widows who remarried committed fornication. Thus he exalted the condition of virginity in an unscriptural way, and this heresy was adopted by the Roman Catholic in its monastic system of unmarried monks and nuns and in its doctrine that priests cannot marry. The New Testament encourages younger widows to remarry (1 Tim. 5:14).
He taught that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.
He classified sins into three categories and believed in confession of sins to a bishop.
He said that the human soul was seen in a vision as “tender, light, and of the colour of air.” He claimed that all human souls were in Adam and are transmitted to us with the taint of original sin upon them.
He taught that there was a time when the Son of God did not exist and when God was not a Father.
He taught that Mary was the second Eve who by her obedience remedied the disobedience of the first Eve. This was a stepping stone toward the Roman Catholic Church’s many heresies about Mary.
CYPRIAN (? – 258)
Cyprian was the “bishop of Carthage” in Africa.
He was tyrannical and wealthy and he wrote against the Novatian churches for their efforts to maintain a pure church membership. He didn’t care if church members gave evidence of the new birth as long as they conformed to external rituals.
Cyprian defended the unscriptural doctrine that certain bishops had authority over many churches and that all pastors must submit to them.
He supported the heresy of infant baptism.
No wonder Cyprian was made one of the “saints” of the Catholic Church.
ORIGEN (185-254)
Though he endured persecution and torture for the cause of Christ under the Roman emperor Decius in 250, and though he defended Christianity against certain heretics, he rejected the faith once delivered to the saints (Jude 3) and taught many gross heresies. Origen founded in a school in Caesarea from which he expounded his errors far and wide through his students and his writings.
Origen “disbelieved the full inspiration and infallibility of the Scriptures, holding that the inspired men apprehended and stated many things obscurely” (Discussions of Robert Lewis Dabney, I, p. 383).
He rejected the literal history of the early chapters in Genesis and of Satan taking the Lord Jesus up to a high mountain and offering him the kingdoms of the world (Will Durant, The Story of Civilization, Vol. III, p. 614). Durant quotes Origen: “Who is so foolish as to believe that God, like a husbandman, planted a garden in Eden, and placed in it a tree of life ... so that one who tasted of the fruit obtained life?” Origen denied the literal creation described in Genesis 1-2 and the literal fall of Genesis 3.
He denied the biblical doctrine of the Trinity. Origen’s “opinions on the Trinity veered between Sabellianism and Arianism. He expressly denied the consubstantial unity of the Persons and the proper incarnation of the Godhead” (Dabney, I, p. 384).
He believed the Holy Spirit was the first creature made by the Father through the Son.
He taught that Jesus is a created being and not the eternal Son of God. “He held an aberrant view on the nature of Christ, which gave rise to the later Arian heresy” (“Origen,” Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics). That Origen believed Jesus Christ had an origin is evident from this statement: “Secondly, that Jesus Christ Himself, who came, was born of the Father before all creatures; and after He had ministered to the Father in the creation of all things,--for through Him were all things made” (Origen, quoted by W.A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers).
He taught that man can become divine as Jesus is divine. “For Christians see that with Jesus human and divine nature begin to be woven together, so that by fellowship with divinity human nature might become divine, not only in Jesus, but also in all those who believe and go on to undertake the life which Jesus taught...” (Against Celsus, 3:28). This statement is grossly heretical on three counts: It teaches that Jesus’ Deity is not unique but is a model for all men, that salvation is achieved by following Jesus’ teaching, and that man can become divine like Jesus.
Origen taught baptismal regeneration and salvation by works. “After these points, it is taught also that the soul, having a substance and life proper to itself, shall, after its departure from this world, be rewarded according to its merits. It is destined to obtain either an inheritance of eternal life and blessedness, if its deeds shall have procured this for it, or to be delivered up to eternal fire and punishment, if the guilt of its crimes shall have brought it down to this” (Origen, cited by W.A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers). “[He] evidently had no clear conception of the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith” (Louis Berkhof, The History of Christian Doctrines, p. 65). This is an important fact, because it means that the gospel Origen taught was a false gospel, and he therefore was under God’s curse (Galatians 1:6-8).
He believed in a form of purgatory and universalism (all men will be saved), believing that even Satan would be saved. “Now let us see what is meant by the threatening with eternal fire. ... It seems to be indicated by these words that every sinner kindles for himself the flame of his own fire and is not plunged into some fire which was kindled beforehand by someone else or which already existed before him. ... And when this dissolution and tearing asunder of the soul shall have been accomplished by means of the application of fire, no doubt it will afterwards be solidified into a firmer structure and into a restoration of itself” (Origen, cited by W.A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers).
He denied the literal fire of hell.
He believed that men’s souls are preexistent and that stars and planets possibly have souls. “In regard to the sun, however, and the moon and the stars, as to whether they are living beings or are without life, there is not clear tradition” (Origen, cited by W.A. Jurgens, The Faith of the Early Fathers).
He denied the bodily resurrection, claiming that the resurrection body is spherical, non-material, and does not have members. “He denied the tangible, physical nature of the resurrection body in clear contrast to the teaching of Scripture” (Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, “Origen”). He was condemned by the Council of Constantinople on this count.
Origen rejected the testimony of the apostle Paul in Colossians 2:16-23 and lived as an ascetic. He even castrated himself in his foolish zeal for the alleged superior holiness of “celibacy” over marriage.
Origen was also one of the chief fathers of the allegorical method of Bible interpretation, which turns the Bible into a nose of wax to be twisted as the reader sees fit. He claimed that “the Scriptures have little use to those who understand them literally.” He described the literal meaning of Scripture as “bread” and encouraged the student to go beyond this to the “wine” of allegoricalism, whereby one can become intoxicated and transported to heavenly realms. Origen’s commentaries contained a wealth of fanciful interpretations, abounding in “heretical revisals of Scripture” (Frederick Nolan, Inquiry into the Integrity of the Greek Vulgate, p. 367).
As for Origen’s character, he was “evidently dishonest and tricky, and his judgment most erratic. … As a controversialist, he was wholly unscrupulous (Discussions of Robert Lewis Dabney, I, p. 383).
EUSEBIUS OF CAESAREA (270-340)
Eusebius collected the writings of Origen and promoted his false teachings.
Constantine the Great, who had joined together church and state in the Roman Empire and had thereby laid the foundation for the establishment of the Roman Catholic Church, hired Eusebius to produce some Greek New Testaments. Many textual authorities have identified Vaticanus and Sinaiticus, the manuscripts so revered by modern textual critics, as two of the copies of the Greek New Testament made by Eusebius. Frederick Nolan and other authorities have charged Eusebius with making many changes in the text of Scripture.
Many of the noted omissions in the modern versions can be traced to this period, including Mark 16:9-20 and John 8:1-11. After intensive investigation, Frederick Nolan concluded that Eusebius “suppressed those passages in his edition” (Nolan, p. 240). These manuscripts also contained the spurious apocryphal writings, Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabas. Origen considered these two fanciful books as Scripture (Goodspeed, The Formation of the New Testament, p. 103).
JEROME (Sophronius Eusebius Hieronymus) (340-420)
Jerome was called upon by Damasus, the Bishop of Rome, to produce a standard Latin Bible. This was completed between A.D. 383 and 405 and became the Bible adopted by the Roman Catholic Church. It is commonly called the Latin vulgate (meaning common).
Modern textual critic Bruce Metzger says that the Greek manuscripts used by Jerome “apparently belonged to the Alexandrian type of text” (Metzger, The Text of the New Testament, p. 76). This means they were in the same family as those underlying the modern versions. Kenyon and Robinson also affirm this (Kenyon, The Text of the Greek Bible, p. 88; Robinson, Ancient Versions of the English Bible, p. 113).
This means that the Jerome Latin vulgate adopted by Rome represents the same type of text as the critical Greek text underlying the modern versions. These commonly remove “God” from 1 Timothy 3:16 and contain many other corruptions.
Jerome was deeply infected with false teaching:
Jerome was deeply committed to the heresy of asceticism, believing the state of virginity to be spiritually superior to that of marriage and demanding that church leaders be unmarried. “... no single individual did so much to make monasticism popular in the higher ranks of society” (James Heron, The Evolution of Latin Christianity, 1919, p. 58). He lived a hermetic life in disobedience to the Bible’s command to go forth and preach the gospel to every creature (Mk. 16:15).
Jerome believed in the veneration of “holy relics” and the bones of dead Christians (Heron, pp. 276, 77).
Jerome “took a leading and influential part in ‘opening the floodgates’ for the invocation of saints,” teaching “that the saints in heaven hear the prayers of men on earth, intercede on their behalf and send them help from above (Heron, pp. 287, 88).
Jerome taught that Mary is the counterpart of Eve, as Christ was the counterpart of Adam, and that through her obedience Mary became instrumental in helping to redeem the human race (Heron, p. 294). He taught that Mary is a perpetual virgin.
Jerome believed in the blessing of “holy water,” which became a major practice in the Roman Catholic Church (Heron, p. 306).
Jerome justified the death penalty for “heretics” (Heron, p. 323).
As for his spirit and character, Jerome is described, even by an unwise historian who had high respect for him, with these words: “such irritability and bitterness of temper, such vehemence of uncontrolled passion, such an intolerant and persecuting spirit, and such inconstancy of conduct” (Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, III, p. 206).
Jerome had a particularly hateful attitude toward those that followed the simple New Testament faith and refused to accept the heresies that he and his fellows were preaching. His writings against these men were characterized by the most hateful, vicious sort of language. Vigilantius, Jovinian, and Helvidius were some of the men upon whom Jerome railed. These men rejected the false traditions that were being added by the early leaders of the Roman Church, including infant baptism, enforced celibacy, worship of martyrs and relics, and the sinlessness and perpetual virginity of Mary. Jerome heaped abuse upon these men, calling them dogs, maniacs, monsters, asses, stupid fools, two-legged asses, gluttons, servants of the devil, madmen, “useless vessels which should be shivered by the iron rod of apostolic authority.” He said Helvidius had a “fetid mouth, fraught with a putrid stench, against the relics and ashes of the martyrs.” Baptist historian Thomas Armitage observed, “The pen of Jerome was rendered very offensive by his grinding tyranny and crabbed temper. No matter how wrong he was, he could not brook contradiction” (A History of the Baptists, I, p. 207).
It is obvious that Jerome had imbibed many of the false teachings and attitudes that eventually became the entrenched dogmas and practices of the Roman Catholic Church.
AMBROSE (339-397)
Ambrose was bishop of Milan, in Italy, from 374-397. Because of his commitment to many early doctrinal heresies, his writings have been appealed to by popes and Catholic councils. Ambrose had a strong influence upon Augustine. The Catholic Church made him a saint and a doctor of the church.
Ambrose used the allegorical-mystical method of Bible interpretation, having been influenced by Origen and Philo.
He taught that Christians should be devoted to Mary, encouraged monasticism, and believed in prayers to the saints.
He believed the church has the power to forgive sins.
He believed the Lord’s Supper is a sacrifice of Christ.
He taught that virginity is holier than marriage and whenever possible he encouraged young women not to marry. His teaching in this helped pave the way for the Catholic monastic system.
He offered prayers for the dead.
AUGUSTINE (354-430)
Augustine was polluted with many false doctrines and helped lay the foundation for the formation of the Roman Catholic Church. For this reason Rome has honored Augustine as one of the “doctors of the church.”
He was a persecutor and one of the fathers of Rome’s Inquisition. He instigated persecutions against the Bible-believing Donatists who were striving to maintain biblical churches and require that church members give evidence of repentance and regeneration.
Augustine was one of the fathers of a-millennialism, allegorizing Bible prophecy and teaching that the Catholic Church is the new Israel and the kingdom of God.
He taught that the ordinances of baptism and the Lord’s Supper are means of salvation.
The ‘council’ of Mela, in Numidia, A.D. 416, composed of merely fifteen persons and presided over by Augustine, decreed: “Also, it is the pleasure of the bishops in order that whoever denies that infants newly born of their mothers, are to be baptized or says that baptism is administered for the remission of their own sins, but not on account of original sin, delivered from Adam, and to be expiated by the laver of regeneration, BE ACCURSED” (Wall, The History of Infant Baptism, I, 265). Augustine thus taught that infants should be baptized and that the baptism took away their sin. He called all who rejected infant baptism “infidels” and “cursed.”
He taught that Mary did not commit sin and promoted her “veneration.” He believed that Mary played a vital role in salvation (Augustine, Sermon 289, cited in Durant, The Story of Civilization, IV, p. 69).
He promoted the myth of purgatory.
He accepted the doctrine of “celibacy” for “priests,” supporting the decree of “Pope” Siricius of 387 which required that any priest that married or refused to separate from his wife should be disciplined.
He exalted the authority of the church over that of the Bible, declaring, “I should not believe the gospel unless I were moved to do so by the authority of the Catholic Church” (quoted by John Paul II, Augustineum Hyponensem, Apostolic Letter, Aug. 28, 1986, www.cin.org/jp2.ency/augustin.html).
He believed that the true interpretation of Scripture is derived from the declaration of church councils (Augustin, De Vera Religione, xxiv, p. 45).
He interpreted the early chapters of Genesis figuratively (Dave Hunt, “Calvin and Augustine: Two Jonahs Who Sink the Ship,” Debating Calvinism: Five Points, Two Views by Dave Hunt and James White, 2004, p. 230).
He taught the heresy of sovereign election, in that God has pre-ordained some for salvation and others for damnation and that the grace of God is irresistible for the true elect. By his own admission, John Calvin in the 16th century derived his TULIP theology on the “sovereignty of God” from Augustine. Calvin said: “If I were inclined to compile a whole volume from Augustine, I could easily show my readers, that I need no words but his” (Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, Book III, chap. 22).
He taught the heresy of apostolic succession from Peter (Dave Hunt, A Woman Rides the Beast, p. 230).
JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (347-407)
Chrysostom was a leader in Antioch, in the Greek part of the Catholic church of that day, and became “patriarch” of Constantinople in 398.
He believed in the “real presence” of the mass, that the bread literally becomes Jesus Christ.
He taught that church tradition can be equal in authority to the Scriptures.
CYRIL (376-444)
Cyril was the “patriarch” of Alexandria and supported many of the errors that led to the formation of the Catholic Church.
He promoted the veneration of Mary and called her the Theotokos, or bearer of God.
In 412, Cyril instigated persecution against the Donatist Christians.
A WARNING OF THE POWER OF THE CHURCH FATHERS TO LEAD TO ROME
Having seen some of the heresies that leavened the “church fathers,” it is not surprising that a non-critical study of their writings can lead to Rome. That is where they were all headed! And for the most part we have only looked at the more doctrinally sound “church fathers”!
In the late nineteenth century JOHN HENRY NEWMAN (1801-90) walked into the Roman Catholic Church through the door of the church fathers. Newman, an Anglican priest and one of the leaders of the Oxford Movement in the Church of England, is one of the most famous of the Protestant converts to Rome. He said that two of the factors in his conversion were his fascination with the church fathers and his study of the lives of the “English saints,” referring to Catholic mystics such as Joan of Norwich. He converted to Rome in 1845 and was made a Cardinal by Pope Leo XIII in 1879.
In more recent days many are following Newman’s lead.
SCOTT AND KIMBERLY HAHN, Presbyterians who joined the Roman Catholic Church, were influenced by the church fathers. In their influential autobiography, Rome Sweet Rome, Kimberly recalls how that Scott studied the “church fathers” when he was still a Presbyterian minister.
“Scott gained many insights from the early Church Fathers, some of which he shared in his sermons. This was rather unexpected for both of us, because we had hardly ever read the early Church Fathers when we were in seminary. In fact, in our senior year we had complained loudly to friends about possible creeping Romanism when a course was offered by an Anglican priest on the early Church Fathers. Yet here was Scott quoting them in sermons! One night Scott came out of his study and said, ‘Kimberly, I have to be honest. I don’t know how long we are going to be Presbyterians. We may become Episcopalians’” (Rome Sweet Rome, p. 56).
In fact, they became Roman Catholics, and the influence of the “church fathers” on that decision is obvious.
In 1985 THOMAS HOWARD became another famous Protestant convert to Rome. In his 1984 book Evangelical Is Not Enough Howard had called upon evangelicals to study the church fathers. Howard was a professor at Gordon College for 15 years and is from a family of prominent evangelicals. His father, Philip, was editor of the Sunday School Times; his brother David Howard was head of the World Evangelical Fellowship; and his sister Elizabeth married the famous missionary Jim Elliot, who was martyred by the Auca Indians in Ecuador.
The church fathers were also instrumental in the conversion of PETER KREEFT to Rome from the Dutch Reformed denomination. Kreeft, a very influential Catholic apologist, studied the church fathers as a student at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He writes:
“My adventurous half rejoiced when I discovered in the early Church such Catholic elements as the centrality of the Eucharist, the Real Presence, prayers to saints, devotion to Mary, an insistence on visible unity, and apostolic succession. Furthermore, THE CHURCH FATHERS JUST ‘SMELLED’ MORE CATHOLIC THAN PROTESTANT, especially St. Augustine, my personal favorite and a hero to most Protestants too. It seemed very obvious that if Augustine or Jerome or Ignatius of Antioch or Anthony of the Desert, or Justin Martyr, or Clement of Alexandria, or Athanasius were alive today they would be Catholics, not Protestants” (“Hauled Aboard the Ark,” http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/hauled-aboard.htm).
Kreeft is absolutely right. Many of the “church fathers” do smell more Catholic than Protestant!
The books Surprised by Truth edited by Patrick Madrid and The Road to Rome edited by Dwight Longenecker and Journeys Home edited by Marcus Grodi contain many examples of this phenomenon. One of the testimonies is by SHARON MANN, who says,
“I started reading the early Church Fathers and realized that whatever they believed, they surely were not Protestant. Catholic themes peppered the landscape of Church history. I couldn’t deny it...” (Journeys Home, 1997, p. 88).
This is true, of course. Catholic themes do pepper the landscape of the “church fathers.” What she should have understood is that they were not doctrinally sound and they have absolutely no authority. Whatever they were, they are not our examples and guides. She should have compared them to the infallible truth in the Bible and rejected them as heretics.
Instead, she allowed the “church fathers” to stir up her curiosity about Roman Catholicism and she ended up at a Mass. There she had a powerful emotional experience when the crowd knelt to idolatrously “adore” the blessed host as it passed by in its “monstrance.” She began weeping and her throat tightened and she couldn’t swallow. She said:
“If the Lord was truly passing by, then I wanted to adore and worship Him, but if He wasn’t, I was afraid to be idolatrous. That weekend left a very powerful imprint on my heart, and I found myself running out of good arguments to stay Protestant. My heart was longing to be Catholic and be restored to the unity with all Christendom” (Journeys Home, p. 89).
When she speaks of the Lord passing by, she is referring to the Catholic doctrine that the wafer or host of the Mass becomes the actual body and blood of Jesus when it is blessed by the priest and thereafter it is worshipped as Jesus Himself. Following the Mass the host is placed in a box called the tabernacle and Catholics pray to it. The host is the Catholic Jesus.
Roger Oakland describes an experience he had in Rome at the feast of Corpus Christi when Pope Benedict XVI worshipped at the Major Mary basilica:
“Finally, after almost three hours of standing and waiting, the pope and his entourage arrived. The pope was carrying the Eucharistic Jesus in a monstrance. Earlier that day during a mass at St. Peter’s, this Eucharistic Jesus had been created from a wafer that had been consecrated. Later in the say, the same Jesus was transported to St. John’s for another ceremony. Finally, for a finale, the pope transported Jesus to the Major Church of Mary. The pope took the monstrance, ascended the stairs of the church, and held Jesus up for the masses to see. Then this Jesus was placed on an altar temporarily erected at the top of the steps. A cardinal then opened the glass window of the monstrance, removed the consecrated wafer (Jesus), and hustled him inside the church where he placed Jesus in a tabernacle. This experience gave me a sobering reminder of this terrible apostasy” (Faith Undone, p. 126).
Mother Teresa exemplified this. She stated plainly that her Christ was the wafer of the Mass. Consider the following quotes from her speech to the Worldwide Retreat for Priests, October 1984, in Vatican City:
“I remember the time a few years back, when the president of Yeman asked us to send some of our sisters to his country. I told him that this was difficult because for so many years no chapel was allowed in Yemen for saying a public mass, and no one was allowed to function there publicly as a priest. I explained that I wanted to give them sisters, but the trouble was that, without a priest, without Jesus going with them, our sisters couldn’t go anywhere. It seems that the president of Yemen had some kind of a consultation, and the answer that came back to us was, ‘Yes, you can send a priest with the sisters!’ I was so struck with the thought that ONLY WHEN THE PRIEST IS THERE CAN WE HAVE OUR ALTAR AND OUR TABERNACLE AND OUR JESUS. ONLY THE PRIEST CAN PUT JESUS THERE FOR US” (Mother Teresa, cited in Be Holy: God’s First Call to Priests Today, edited by Tom Forrest, C.Ss.R., 1987, p. 109).
“One day she [a girl working in Calcutta] came, putting her arms around me, and saying, ‘I have found Jesus.’ ... ‘And just what were you doing when you found him?’ I asked. She answered that after 15 years she had finally gone to confession, and received Holy Communion from the hands of a priest. Her face was changed, and she was smiling. She was a different person because THAT PRIEST HAD GIVEN HER JESUS” (Mother Teresa, Be Holy, p. 74).
It is a great spiritual blindness to think that the Lord Jesus Christ can be worshipped legitimately in the form of a piece of bread!
A more recent convert to Rome is FRANCIS BECKWITH, former president of the Evangelical Theological Society. In May 2007 he tendered his resignation from this organization after converting to Rome. His journey to Rome was sparked by reading the church fathers. He said, “In January, at the suggestion of a dear friend, I began reading the Early Church Fathers as well as some of the more sophisticated works on justification by Catholic authors. I became convinced that the Early Church is more Catholic than Protestant...” (“Evangelical Theological Society President Converts,” The Berean Call, May 7, 2007).
Again, he is correct in observing that the church fathers were very Catholic-like, but that proves nothing. The truth is not found in the church fathers but in the Bible itself.
This is a loud warning to those who have an ear to hear the truth. We don’t need to study the “church fathers.” We need to make certain that we are born again and have the indwelling Spirit as our Teacher (1 John 2:27), then we need to study the Bible diligently and walk closely with Christ and become so thoroughly grounded in the truth that we will not be led astray by the wiles of the devil and by all of the fierce winds of error that are blowing in our day.
“That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive” (Ephesians 4:14).
**And I will give power to my two witnesses**
The Word is silent on the names of the two witnesses.
Some think that one is Enoch.
Besides, since the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, there are no scriptural records of any of the dead in Christ being awakened before the ‘trump of God’ sounds.
He not only said it, but it is written. The foundation consists of tHe Jewish apostles and prophets, with Messiah himself as the chief cornerstone, your denial notwithstanding, for it is written.
I accept your testimony that you don't know where Moses and Elijah are, nor Enoch or the other saints raised from the dead.
Besides, since the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, there are no scriptural records of any of the dead in Christ being awakened before the trump of God sounds. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live. But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour? Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. Now there was at Joppa a certain disciple named Tabitha, which by interpretation is called Dorcas: this woman was full of good works and almsdeeds which she did. And it came to pass in those days, that she was sick, and died: whom when they had washed, they laid her in an upper chamber. And forasmuch as Lydda was nigh to Joppa, and the disciples had heard that Peter was there, they sent unto him two men, desiring him that he would not delay to come to them. Then Peter arose and went with them. When he was come, they brought him into the upper chamber: and all the widows stood by him weeping, and shewing the coats and garments which Dorcas made, while she was with them. But Peter put them all forth, and kneeled down, and prayed; and turning him to the body said, Tabitha, arise. And she opened her eyes: and when she saw Peter, she sat up. And he gave her his hand, and lifted her up, and when he had called the saints and widows, presented her alive. And it was known throughout all Joppa; and many believed in the Lord.
Luke, Catholic chapter ten, Protestant verses twenty eight to twenty nine,
John, Catholic chapter fourteen, Protestant verses eight to fourteen,
Acts, Catholic chapter nine, Protestant verses thirty six to forty two,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
I did not realize until now that you had your own translation, and had modified the scriptures on purpose, which apparently you need to do, not me, to try to argue against what is written.
I said : The Word is silent on the names of the two witnesses. Some think that one is Enoch.
You said: I accept your testimony that you don’t know where Moses and Elijah are, nor Enoch or the other saints raised from the dead.
I say: I said nothing about the whereabouts of the deceased. I said there is no mention of the names of the ‘two witnesses’ in Revelation. So, I don’t pretend that I do know.
Tabitha was raised from the dead to continue living a mortal life. There is no testamony of her having an “out of body’ experience, so she must have been asleep in Christ for those few hours.
I wrote it to suit your organizations interpretation. I’ll shorten it for you: “Thou art Peter, and upon you will I build my church.”
Your interpretation has Peter as the foremost stone, immediately following Christ. Yet neither Peter, nor the rest of the apostles, ever taught that he was greater than any of the others.
And he knew to call Jesus the “Son of the living God’, not ‘God the Son’.
Yes, now that we've established that a second time, I accept your testimony that you don't know where Moses and Elijah are, nor Enoch or the other saints raised from the dead.
Besides, since the outpouring of the Holy Ghost on Pentecost, there are no scriptural records of any of the dead in Christ being awakened before the trump of God sounds.
False, as I proved from scripture.
Tabitha was raised from the dead to continue living a mortal life. There is no testimony of her having an out of body experience, so she must have been asleep in Christ for those few hours.
You now admit Tabitha was raised from the dead but try to dismiss it with your opinion.
Purposefully corrupting the scriptures as a debating tactic demonstrates a lack of reverence for that which is holy and is unprofitable. Cease from evil.
Your interpretation has Peter as the foremost stone, immediately following Christ. Yet neither Peter, nor the rest of the apostles, ever taught that he was greater than any of the others.
I showed you from the scriptures that the Jewish apostles and prophets are the foundation, with the Messiah himself, as the chief cornerstone, of the holy catholic apostolic church. I did not post the scripture, though I could, where the Apostle to the Gentiles wrote the LORD gave Cephas the apostleship to the Jews.
And he knew to call Jesus the Son of the living God, not God the Son.
This is the second time you have objected to Jesus being called "God the Son," which I assume means you deny Jesus is God the Son. Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Psalms, Catholic chapter forty five, Protestant verses six to seven,
Hebrews, Catholic chapter one, Protestant verses one to eight,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James
**Yes, now that we’ve established that a second time, I accept your testimony that you don’t know where Moses and Elijah are, nor Enoch or the other saints raised from the dead.**
The word tells me that those men were faithful. Their souls are saved. The spiritual realm is what I can’t see, so I can’t see them. The scriptures call it hope. For now we see in a glass darkly. If you know where the souls of the deceased are, then you can tell me absolutely where the souls of every deceased president of the U.S. is right now.
**False, as I proved from scripture.**
You proved nothing. Tabitha was raised to CONTINUE her MORTAL life here on earth. The word says nothing about her ascending to heaven, for the scriptures do not record the remainder of her life.
**Purposefully corrupting the scriptures as a debating tactic demonstrates a lack of reverence for that which is holy and is unprofitable. Cease from evil.**
Why did that offend you? That is exactly how your church interprets that verse. Because I word the verse to match your church’s interpretation I’m accused of evil?
Which is worse, re-writing the scripture for debate, or re-writing the scriptures BY one’s ACTIONS to build a church doctrine?
**I showed you from the scriptures that the Jewish apostles and prophets are the foundation, with the Messiah himself, as the chief cornerstone**
Don’t forget that Paul was also a Jewish apostle.
**I did not post the scripture, though I could, where the Apostle to the Gentiles wrote the LORD gave Cephas the apostleship to the Jews.**
I don’t disagree with that. That puts Peter and Paul on equal footing. One is not greater than the other.
**This is the second time you have objected to Jesus being called “God the Son,” which I assume means you deny Jesus is God the Son.**
Neither Jesus, nor the apostles, EVER used the phrase “God the Son”. They knew that the Son came from the Father, and went to the Father, and that the Father was in him as well.
God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24).
Jesus Christ declared that the Father was in him doing the works, giving him the words to speak (John 14:10,11).
Jesus Christ, John, and Paul, all said that God is invisible.
God the Father made his attributes visible through Christ. Which is what the Son says thoughout the book of John.
**Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.**
God is a Spirit, omnipresent, and he is in Christ reconciling the world unto himself.
Do you confess, or deny, that Jesus the Messiah is God the Son ?
I confess, just like Peter, that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God.
So, believing like Peter, I’m wrong? And, just like Jesus Christ and his apostles, NEVER using the phrase “God the Son” to define God, I’m wrong?
Now, it’s your turn to answer a question (or three):
In John 14:10, when he said, “Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the WORDS that I speak unto you I speak NOT of myself: but the Father that DWELLETH IN ME, HE DOETH the WORKS.”, was Jesus Christ telling the truth?
Most of the following references are from the mouth of Christ. With your coequal, copowerful, three persons confusion, why is the Son attributing all power, and wisdom as coming from the Father?
gave: 3:16, 10:29, 12:49, 14:31
gavest: 17:4,6,8,12,22, 18:9
give: 14:6, 15:16, 16:23
given: 3:35, 5:26,27,36, 6:39,65, 7:39, 13:3, 17:2(2),7,8,9,11,24(2)
received: 10:18
send: 14:26, 15:26, 17:8, Acts 3:20
sent: 3:17,34, 4:34, 5:23,24,30,36,37,38, 6:29,38,39,40,44,57, 7:16,18,28,29,33, 8:16,18,26,29,42, 9:4, 10:36, 11:42, 12:44,45,49, 13:16,20, 14:24, 15:21, 16:5, 17:3,18,21,23,25, 20:21
will (noun): 4:34, 5:30(2), 6:38,39,40, 7:17
will (verb): 5:20, 11:22, 12:26, 14:26, 15:26, 16:23
word and words (actually there are others that should be included, but the Son made it clear in the following ones whose ‘words’ they were): 3:34, 14:24, 17:6,8,14,17
work and works: 4:34, 5:20,36(2), 9:4, 10:25,37,38, 14:10, 17:4
doctrine: (I’ll spell it out) 7:16,17: “My doctrine is NOT mine, but HIS that SENT me. If any man will do HIS will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of GOD, or whether I speak of myself.”
That’s over 100 references (from the book of John alone) showing that the Son’s source of ALL things divine, ALL power, ALL wisdom, etc., is from God the Father. There are plenty more alluding to the same.
BUT......here is another question for you: With your separate and distinct persons of God theology; can you quote a scripture that shows the FATHER receiving anything divine from the Son?
You see, we ‘oneness’ believe that the Father is a Spirit (John 4:24), and omnipresent, and is IN Christ, giving him ALL power, just as the Christ testified.
Your organization demands that Mary made more of God, therefore defining her as the ‘mother of God’. She is mother to the man that “..God hath made......both Lord and Christ”. Acts 2:36. Mary didn’t make him ‘Lord and Christ’, God the Father did.
By dwelling in Christ (the image of the INVISIBLE God), God could display his attributes to man, by using a perfect man.
**Yes, you are wrong. You are in a Protestant cult called Oneness Pentecostalism that denies the Trinity. This demonstrates a fundamental flaw in Protestantism as its offshoots devolve and renounce fundamental Christian doctrine, the Trinity, claiming Sola Scriptura as their justification.**
I was thoroughly indoctrinated into trinitarianism during my first 28 years on this earth. Your opinion, and the unspiritual opinion of others means nothing. You won’t even answer my questions. If you could scripturally answer them, you would.
So, I will give you more questions to not answer:
1. Are you and your word two separate and distinct persons? (we are made in the image of God aren’t we?)
2. Whos greater: The Son says, My Father, which is GAVE them me, is GREATER than ALL... 10:29; and ..for my Father is GREATER than I... 14:28.
3. Mat_28:19 “ Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:..”. The greatest teacher of all gave the disciples that commandment, and they promptly went about baptizing in the name of JESUS. Now, first of all, note that he says name in the singular, not names. Son is a title. thou shalt call his NAME Jesus. Luke 1:21. Jesus Christ said that his name is not his own (John 5:43), And Heb. 1:4 says that he inheritted it. The apostles knew what they were doing when they baptized in the name of ‘Jesus’. Do you use his name in water baptism?
4. The Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the FATHER will SEND in MY NAME.... So, what name are YOU going to use to request the coming of the Holy Ghost?
5. AND........dont forget Matthew 28:18; Jesus..spake...All power is GIVEN unto me in heaven and in Earth (thats pretty much everywhere, and lets see, who GAVE it unto him?......could it be the Father that dwelleth in him, and he in the Father?).
6. Jesus praying to the Father (17:1), And this is life eternal, that they might know THEE the ONLY TRUE GOD, ........AND........JESUS CHRIST, whom THOU hast SENT. John 17:3. So, do you disagree with the Son, who declares the Father to be the “ONLY TRUE GOD”?
Or this: How does a trinitarian explain this: But of that day and hour knoweth....my Father only (the 2nd and 3rd ‘persons of God dont know??)?
You want the Christ to be the separate and distinct ‘Word’, but what saith the Master?.......Jesus Christ tells us where the Words come from:
John 3:34,35 “For he whom God hath SENT speaketh the WORDS of God: for God GIVETH not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath GIVEN ALL THINGS iinto his hand.” The Spirit, which “proceedeth from the Father” (Jesus’ words, not mine), was GIVEN to the Christ without measure; unlimited, and in every fiber of his being.
8:26 “I have many things to say and to judge of you: but he that hath SENT me is true; and I SPEAK to the world those things which I have HEARD of him.” 27 “They understood not that he spake to them of the FATHER.”
47-50 “And if any man hear my words........He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. For I have NOT SPOKEN of MYSELF; but the FATHER which SENT me, he GAVE me a COMMANDMENT, what I should SAY, and what I should SPEAK. And I know his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I SPEAK therefore, even as the FATHER SAID unto ME, so I SPEAK.”
17:14 “I have given them THY WORD...”
17:17 “..THY WORD is truth”. (remember WHO the Son was talking to in John 17?)
Food for thought: 15:1 A vine (Son) and a husbandman (the Father). The husbandman plants the vine and cares for it, etc. The husbandman gave the vine its start, provides all its needs, and has the power to prune or even kill the vine. Of itself, the vine has no such power.
Satan, Peter, and Martha, all testified to the Christ that he is the ‘Son of God’, TO HIS FACE. He didn’t correct them. THAT is the plain reading of the scriptures. The phrase is found in the NT almost 50 times, and the phrases ‘God the Son’, and ‘God the Holy Ghost’ are found nowhere.
From his beginning creation (the only begotten), the Son has always had the Father in him, and he in the Father (because he said so). When the Son speaks, it is as the mouthpiece of God the Father. God the Father is the ‘I am’. The Christ is simply the image of the invisible Father, the ‘only true God’ (from the Christ’s testamony; John 17:1-3).
I can answer EVERY SINGLE argument you have, in your defense of the ‘trinity’, with this simple fact: The omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God the Father is IN Christ.
Jesus Christ inheritted his name. From who? When? How does someone inherit something if he has ALWAYS been possessor of it?
I choose to regard your questions as heretical cultist propaganda, as I would with the other pseudo Christian cults that deny the Trinity. Modern nontrinitarian Christian groups or denominations include Christadelphians, Christian Scientists, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Dawn Bible Students, Friends General Conference, Iglesia ni Cristo, Jehovah's Witnesses, Living Church of God, Oneness Pentecostals, Members Church of God International, Unitarian Universalist Christians, The Way International, The Church of God International and the United Church of God.
**I choose to regard your questions as heretical cultist propaganda, as I would with the other pseudo Christian cults that deny the Trinity.**
No, you choose not to defend a theory that is so unscriptural that you can’t find answers to my questions. If you were in the right, it would be easy.
I believe that there is a God the Father, the Son of God, and the Holy Ghost. I believe that the Son is of the Father (the Son says so). The Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father (the Son says so). The Father is the source of all things divine. You can’t prove it otherwise. That makes your testamony, of your church’s understanding of the Godhead, pretty weak.
The devil was busy making imposter churches while the writers of the epistles were still alive. Your’s simply became the mainstream media of so-called Christianity. No surprise there, for Jesus, speaking of the strait way to eternal life, said that few there be that find it.
I can keep ‘turning the other cheek’, nomatter how much disdain you have for what I believe, and still reply with scriptural truth. Can you?
I have neither harmed you, nor wronged you, nor given you offence. I patiently conversed with you until you repeated your heresy twice. I then told you the truth about it. I'm sorry that you are mired in it. I pray Hod free you from your bonds and deliver you from evil. I withdraw myself from you as I would from Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses engaging in proselytizing propaganda. But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
Titus, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verses nine to eleven, Second Thessalonians, Catholic chapter three, Protestant verses one to six, as authorized, but not authored, by King James
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