Posted on 02/28/2015 2:38:16 PM PST by SkyPilot
Defending The Pre-trib Rapture
After reading countless messages and articles that attack the pre-trib rapture, I've noticed a certain number of arguments that are repeatedly sent to me.
Instead of trying to answer every individual e-mail I receive, I thought it would be a good idea to create a web page that addresses the most commonly mentioned points of debate. This way, I can avoid repeating myself so many times; thereby, maintain my sanity.
Nowhere in the Bible, can you find the word "rapture"
It amazes me that some folks write to me, questioning the validity of the rapture, simply because the word "rapture" doesn't appear in the Bible.
With 1 Thes 4:16-18 giving us such a clear description of the rapture, you would have to conclude that some people are just playing games with the Word of God. I could change the name of my site to "Catching Up Ready" to satisfy these folks, but I hardly think that would improve things.
Their logic fails because there are a huge number of words that don't appear in the Bible, including the word "Bible." Because God's Word was originally written in Hebrew and Greek, one could truthfully say that no English words are in the Bible. Let's take a look at 1 Thes 4:16-18 in the original Greek:
Note to reader - Greek does not paste into this post, go to link of original article to view the original Greek
4:16 oti autos o kurios en keleusmati en fwnh arcaggelou kai en salpiggi qeou katabhsetai ap ouranou kai oi nekroi en cristw anasthsontai prwton 4:17 epeita hmeis oi zwntes oi perileipomenoi ama sun autois arpaghsomeqa en nefelais eis apanthsin tou kuriou eis aera kai outws pantote sun kuriw esomeqa 4:18 wste parakaleite allhlous en tois logois toutois
I don't see the dead in Christ rising, Jesus descending from heaven, and us meeting Him in the air. So the cynics are right: the word "rapture" is nowhere to be found. All I see is gobbledygook.
For the record, the word "rapture" comes from the Latin word "rapturo," which in turn was a translation of the Greek verb "caught up" found in 1 Thes 4:17. You can call it the pre-trib rapture, the pre-trib rapturo, or the pre-trib caught up--it's all the same thing.
Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say that the Church will be raptured before the tribulation.
Pre-trib opponents should have thought this one through because any pre-tribulationist has the same right to say, "Nowhere in the Bible does it directly say the Church will go through the tribulation."
Jesus did say, "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). The only time frame I can think of when we believers would not be expecting Jesus to return would have to be before the tribulation.
The Margaret MacDonald Origin
One of the most widely circulated attacks against the pre-trib rapture is the notion that a girl named Margaret MacDonald started this theological view back in 1830. The claim is typically made that MacDonald received a demonic vision, passed it on to John Darby, who in turn popularized it. Disproving this assertion proves rather easy. Pre-trib scholars have discovered a host of rapture writings that predate Margaret MacDonald.
Epharaem the Syrian said, in 373 AD, "For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."
One post-trib author offered a reward to anyone who could find a quote that predated MacDonald. He had to quickly cough up the money when someone identified a scholar who wrote about the pre-trib rapture several years before MacDonald. As of late, dozens of examples have been found, and the literary surface has hardly been scratched.
With the revealing of all these pre-MacDonald writings, you would think that this argument has been debunked. Unfortunately, this is not the case. We seem to be involved in a tug-of-war with the truth. Apparently, due to their lack of research, pre-trib opponents continue to pump out publications that cite MacDonald as the originator of the pre-trib rapture.
The Last Trumpet Argument
Because Paul, in 1 Cor. 15:52 and 1 Thes 4:16, said believers would be raptured at the sounding of a trump, many folks have tried to make it appear that the rapture trumps are the same trumpets found in Revelation 11:15-18, Joel 2:1, and Mat 24:31--which all occur during the tribulation.
When you have trumpets commonly used throughout the Bible, I think it's foolish to just assume any two of the 62 trumps or trumpets are prophetically related. To be able to make the claim that the tribulation trumpet soundings are the same as the rapture trumps, you would need a direct statement saying this is the case.
In the movies Ben-Hur and The Wizard of Oz, I recall hearing the sounding of trumpets. Are both these trumpets somehow prophetically related?
If your friend John said he went to his favorite restaurant last night, and another friend Larry said he also went to his favorite restaurant last night, is it logical for you to assume they both went to the same restaurant? Obviously not, because even though John and Larry went to their favorite restaurants, they may have had two different eating establishments in mind. The same logic should apply with the word trumpet.
With such a blind devotion to this one similarity, I have to wonder if these last-tumpeters are able to distinguish the difference between Tylenol and Exlax. They're both over-the-counter drugs, they come in pill form, and they can also be found in a medicine cabinet. Of course, one will make your headache disappear and the other will make your toilet paper disappear.
Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?
Post-tribbers use a trumpet sounding in Joel 2:1 as evidence for a post-trib rapture on the Day of the Lord. I have three problems with Joel 2:1:
1. Joel clearly says that the purpose for blowing the trumpet is to "sound an alarm."
2. According to 1 Cor 15:52, the rapture is something that occurs in the twinkling of an eye. Joel 2:1 says the Day of the Lord is nigh at hand. In order for Joel's trumpet to be the same one in 1 Cor. there would have to be a time delay between the sounding of the trumpet and the rapture of the Church.
3. The fact that there is another trumpet being sounded in Joel 2:15 further clouds the possibility that these trumpets could have anything to do with the rapture.
When Paul was writing to the Corinthians, he specifically said "the" last trump. During the Feast of Trumpets, the Jews blow short trumpet blasts. They end the feast with a long blast from what is called the last trump, which is blown the longest. Judaism has traditionally connected this last trump with the resurrection of the dead. Paul also made the connection. For many Christians, the association between the rapture and the Feast of Trumpets is so strong, they look for the rapture to someday occur on this feast.
The Day of the Lord Argument
A number people have attempted to refute the pre-trib rapture by trying to associate the "Day of the Lord" with a catching-up of believers at the end of the tribulation. They base their rapture views solely on the idea that the "Day of the Lord" and the rapture are either synonymous or somehow linked together.
The Achilles heel of their argument has to be the notion that the "Day of the Lord" and various other "days" of an end-time context refers to a 24 hour period that occurs at or near the end of the tribulation. Probably the most commonly cited verse is 1 Thessalonians 5:2 where Paul tells us the "Day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night."
I've read countless articles that describe the "Day of the Lord" as Christ's advent at Armageddon. These articles go on to say that, because Paul also tells us the Lord will come "as a thief," we have a direct link to the same description that is applied to noted rapture verses.
It's rather obvious that those trying to rely on the "Day of the Lord" never bothered to validate the meaning of this particular day. I've checked a number of commentaries on the "Day of the Lord" and many of them define this as being an all-encompassing period that begins with the Great Tribulation. Let's examine some verses that clearly indicate that the term "day" is used to represent a broader time period.
II Peter 3:10-13 The "Day of the Lord" Peter spoke of in second Peter, cannot be a one day event because it mentions the destruction of the earth by fire and its renovation. Rev 21:11 tells us the earth will not be renewed until after Christ's 1000 year reign.
Joel 2:11-20 The "Day of the Lord" Joel describes, includes the defeat of the northern army. Ezk. 38 and 39 is parallel passage. Most scholars would time the destruction of the Gog army as occurring before in the first half of the tribulation.
John 12:48 In the book of John, Jesus uses the term "last day" to indicate when the lost would be judged. Rev 20 makes it clear that the unsaved will not be judged until after the millennium--yet another 1000 year gap.
Hebrews 10:25 One of the best indications that most of the various "day" references are citing a general time period can be found in Hebrews 10:25: "Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching."
Surely, Paul would not be warning us to watch for a day that would be coming at the end of the tribulation. That type of logic would be like warning children, as they cross the road, to watch out for tail lights.
The First Resurrection
I've heard some folks say, "There cannot be a pre-trib rapture because to have one would require a second resurrection at Christ's return to earth." This conclusion is drawn from Revelation 20:
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:5-6).
One pre-trib writer, explaining this passage, said, "The first did not mean first in time, but rather first in kind." The first resurrection was for God's people the second will be for the unsaved.
A quick way to shoot down the notion that the first resurrection is tied to a specific date, as opposed to a more general time frame, is to take note of the tribulation rapture of the two witnesses and the 144,000 Jewish evangelists. At the mid-point of the tribulation, the two witnesses are killed by the Antichrist, resurrected by God, and then caught up into heaven (Rev 11:3-12).
Revelation chapter 7 describes the sealing of the 144,000 Jewish evangelists just before the Beast issues his mark. Sometime during the latter half of the tribulation, Revelation chapter 14 indicates they will be "redeemed from the earth," standing before the throne of God.
Confusion over Confusion: 2 Thes 2:1-6
Because Paul, in 2 Thessalonians, said the Antichrist would be revealed before the Day of the Christ, post and pre-wrath adherents frequently try to cite this passage as one that refutes the pre-trib rapture.
To quell the Thessalonian's misunderstanding that they had somehow entered the tribulation, Paul told them the Antichrist must first be revealed. By telling them they had no reason to panic, Paul is clearly disputing the idea that the Thessalonians could someday find themselves facing the tribulation hour.
I'm constantly being irked by Post-trib and pre-wrath folks' consistent, or better yet deliberate, failure to accept the simple fact that the pre-trib doctrine calls for a rapture and a second coming. Because they only glean the prophetic word for one event--the second coming--they're unable to recognize pre-trib rapture passages.
Of course, when you fuse the two advents together, you end up with verses that appear to contradict each other: 1 Thessalonians 5:9, "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ," and Revelation 13:7, "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations."
Reverse Logic Stuck In Reverse
Many people are against the pre-trib rapture simply because they see it as being the dominant view on the timing of Christ's return for the Church. The anti-pretribulationists often think they are the last remaining true believers. I'm simply dumbfounded over why some people choose rebellion against the majority view as their guide for finding truth.
The measurement of popularity alone is a terrible way to determine something's validity. It is particularly strange when people solely rely on the contrarian view to judge truth from fiction. I utilize contrarian views all the time to help determine what is truthful; however, it would be a terrible mistake on my part if I made Contrarianism the core foundation of any of my beliefs.
If you're using reverse logic, you need to support your conclusions. The vast majority of the population would agree that apples grow on apple trees and cherries grow on cheery trees. The pure novelty of the opposite being true does not in any way help make it so. Unless you see farmers gluing apples onto cherry trees or picking cherries from apple trees, you have no basis to think that these two fruits do not grow on anything but the trees that share the same name.
Some people are clearly more in love with the idea of a conspiracy than they are the truth. Every time an airplane crashes to the earth there's someone who will proclaim it was caused by anything from an act of terrorism to a bizarre government plot. It's just not exciting enough to say it was a mechanical problem that led to the crash.
The idea that the pre-trib rapture is the dominant view is not correct in the first place. Most evangelicals would say they look for a pre-trib rapture, but if you include all Christians, pretribulationists would rank third behind post-trib and preterist adherents.
Persecute Me Please
You would think the desire to go through the tribulation would be as popular as the desire to jump into a pit filled with vipers and broken glass. As illogical as it may seem, there appears to be a large number of Christians that fully expect to get roughed up before Christ returns.
Many Christians argue strongly for the right to suffer persecution at the hands of the Antichrist and the one world government. These tribulation saint wannabees constantly harp, "Because Jesus and His disciples suffered persecution, we should expect no better." It's been my experience that people with the weakest faith are generally the ones that talk the boldest. When the slightest difficulty comes their way, they cry to high heaven.
I hate to be the bearer of good news, but the word of God clearly states that believers will escape the tribulation bloodbath. "For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thes 5:9). "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev 3:10).
In one regard, people who think the Church will go through the tribulation are somewhat correct. I believe a huge number people--who are Christians in name only--will find themselves left behind. By having the rapture before the tribulation, all those who find themselves facing the wrath of God will be without an excuse.
No Secret Rapture
"There is no secret rapture" is the beginning declaration of a large percentage of messages that attack the rapture. Rarely is this statement backed by supporting scriptural evidence. A few people will cite Rev 1:17, "every eye shall see him," as proof that the rapture will not be a secret event. Of course, I would immediately note that "every eye shall see him" is the second coming.
I have a hard time understanding how these folks could think pretribulationists preach a secret rapture. We seem to be doing our very best to popularize the rapture before it takes place. I doubt that, afterwards, with all the car wrecks, plane crashes, and missing persons reports, the rapture will remain a secret occurrence.
The only people I know who are attempting to keep the pre-trib rapture a secret are its critics. Pre-wrath and post-trib folks have the national media and the liberal churches as their allies in their ongoing effort to silence all knowledge of the "blessed hope."
No Imminency
Because an imminent or any moment rapture is one of the major teachings of pre-tribulationists, opponents of this view attempt to dismantle the imminency of the rapture.
Although Jesus said, "Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come" (Mat 24:42), advocates for knowing the "day" will claim this only applies to the unsaved. I hear arguments like, "Surely a loving father would tell his own children when he's coming for them."
To try to get around "no man know the hour," a popular scripture often cited is: "But yea brethren, are not in darkness that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 Thes 5:4).
Despite all their monkeying with scripture, pre-trib detractors just cannot escape Jesus' restriction against knowing the timing of the rapture. In fact, our Lord was so restrictive about the rapture, He said its occurrence would come as a total surprise. "Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44).
Now as far as the second coming goes, the Bible couldn't be plainer. It clearly states that Jesus will return 1260 days from the moment the Antichrist sits in the Temple of God and declares himself to be God. Because there exists both a known and an unknown date, many scholars have logically concluded that there must be two different events occurring--the rapture and the second coming.
The Restrainer
In 2 Thessalonians the Apostle Paul speaks of a "he" that will restrain the advent of the Antichrist. The restrainer's removal is required before the Antichrist can be revealed.
2 Thessalonians 2:6-8, "And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."
A debate has erupted over the identity of the Restrainer because if this "he" is the Holy Ghost, the only real explanation for his removal would be the rapture of the Church, which is indwelled by him. The strongest argument offered against the Holy Spirit being the Restrainer is the belief that if God's Spirit was ever removed from the earth, no one could then be saved. The removal of the Holy Ghost does not have to be an all or nothing proposition. I believe his being "taken out of the way" will only be a degree of removal.
Before the Church Age, people were able to find salvation, which obviously meant the Holy Spirit was at work on earth. When the outpouring of the Holy Ghost occurred at Pentecost, we didn't have a second Holy Spirit come to earth. His removal at the rapture will only be a reversal or ending of the Pentecostal outpouring.
Replacementism
Because Revelation places a strong emphasis on Israel during the tribulation, and not on the church, most post-tribulationists have adopted a replacement theology view in order to maintain the focus on them.
Replacementism is the view that Israel, having failed God, has been replaced by the Church. The Church is now seen as spiritual Israel and spiritual Jerusalem. This teaching claims that all the promises and blessings, in fact Israel's entire inheritance, now belongs to the Church. However, all is not lost for Israel; it gets to keep all the curses.
Dispensational theology, taught by nearly all pre-tribulationists, teaches that God has separate strategies for dealing with the Church and the Jews. When you consider the change in focus, during the tribulation, from the Church to Israel, the pre-trib rapture provides a good explanation for this transfer of attention.
To say that Israel is no longer God's chosen people is really playing with fire because the Antichrist will likely be saying the same thing when he tries to destroy the Jews during the tribulation. I look for people that hold to replacementism to be in the cheering section when the Beast goes on his Jew-killing campaign. "The Lord will not reject his people; he will never forsake his inheritance" (Psalm 94:14).
"This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that its waves roar - the Lord Almighty is his name: 'Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,' declares the Lord, 'will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me'" (Jeremiah 31:35-36).
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>> “I would rather have the broad perspective from many different Christian pastors” <<
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I would rather forego the corruptions of those men and rely on the plain word of God, regardless of how much violence it does to the words of those men.
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True. God will not ask my opinion. My hope has nothing to do with this world at all.
“I would rather have the broad perspective from many different Christian pastors”
“broad perspective”? It’s a PRETRIB center.
“Before God’s Wrath” is a study of the Bible and a comparison of the Bible’s Word with MAN’S (as in Christian pastors’) interpretation, except it compares BOTH pretrib and prewrath.
I really have to leave now. Can’t respond anymore at this time.
It’s broader than what you’re suggesting ... ;-) ...
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Everything “pre-trib” is narrow, man made, and contrary to the plain words of Yeshua and his apostles.
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What “Biblical hermeneutics?”
That is pure nonsense!
God’s word has no contradictions, and a pre-trib rapture would turn the entire Bible on its head.
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Here is an example of the thoroughly dishonest intent of the article:
>> “Pre-wrath proponents say that the Seventh Trumpet blown in Rev 11:15-18 is the same last trump Paul spoke of in 1 Cor 15:52. However, they fail to take into account the fact that John wrote Revelation 40 years after Paul wrote his first epistle to the Corinthians. How could Paul refer to something that was not yet revealed?” <<
Really?
Paul plainly stated that all was revealed to him by Yeshua, on the Damascus road (long before it was revealed to John).
Do they think that the apostles had different revelations?
Paul and John were both speaking of the same events, so how would the trumps be different? This is convoluted, contrived deception to sooth their own fears, and lack of spiritual guidance.
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Yeshua took no one to heaven!
John 3:13
“And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.”
Yeshua is the First Fruits.
There is but one resurrection unto life, at the last trump, at the end of the trib, just before the bowls of wrath are poured out on the Earth.
Rev 20:6 “ Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.”
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No,the falling away is not a departure. it is a moral, spiritual corruption of the entire
Earth.
The man of sin must be revealed before our redemption.
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“We will never be sure until the events occur which is correct, but I am excitedly awaiting the return of my Savior.”
That’s the bottom line, to “long for His appearing”.
Your right no one could ascend into Heaven until Jesus did making him the first fruits, but as Scripture states he did indeed take captives home.
Ephesians 4:7-9 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift. 8 Therefore it says,
“When He ascended on high,
He led captive a host of captives,
And He gave gifts to men.”
9 (Now this expression, “He ascended,” what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
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Your version makes the Bible a book of contradictions.
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"2 Thessalonians 2.7: "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way."
It is the true Church that must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can be revealed.
The Holy Spirit indwells with believers. This is absolutely Biblical. When the restrainer (Holy Spirit in believers) is removed, then the Antichrist (indwelled by Satan) will start his plan, including the peace false treaty with Israel.
Paul plainly stated that all was revealed to him by Yeshua, on the Damascus road (long before it was revealed to John).
I am sorry, but that is pure sophistry.
By that argument, I could say that two disciples who walked with Jesus (even through they didn't recognize Him at the time) on the Road to Emmaus, and stated Luke 24:32 that the Scriptures were opened to them, were given every revelation and every secret of the mind of God. But that would be a false argument, and it isn't what the passage says. God chose to reveal Revelation and its secrets to one disciple, John, and He did it many years later.
Paul never claimed that he was given the entire mind of God (which would be impossible anyway) and every revelation. But Paul preached time and time again that the the Gospel of Jesus Christ was opened to him. And that is what he preached - Christ crucified. Paul was given insight to the Rapture and the Antichrist, and yet even what he says you have discounted.
We have already gone over the trumpets as well, and the Bible mentions trumpets over 60 times. You wish to hang your hat on one trumpet being the same trumpet. You believe what you want to believe.
Those who are persecuted during the Tribulation become believers after the Rapture. These are the saints. Revelation even tells us that many were beheaded, and are given white robes and told to wait a little longer until their brethren are also killed in a like fashion, so that their martyrdom is complete before God enacts his vengeance. (Revelation 6)
Finally, I will restate what I have already said here. If the Rapture is mid or end Tribulation, then a believer would know the exact timing of Christ's Rapture of His own based on the days revealed by Daniel after the signing of the false 7 year peace treaty. That flies in the face of everything Christ said about us not knowing the day nor the hour, and the Doctrine of Imminency.
"But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only" (Matthew 24:36).
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up. Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing" (Matthew 24:42-46).
The pre-tribulation Rapture is the only view that allows for the Rapture to be imminent in its timing. If Christ were prevented from coming until after the rise of Antichrist, and the Mark of the Beast, we would have no need to watch for Him before the tribulation.
I don't read minds, so I don't know why you choose to believe falsely as you do. Perhaps you think that once the Anti-Christ is revealed, you can suddenly turn more devout or in the way you are living, because you will know the End is nigh? Perhaps you think it will be grand to know the time line of Revelation as it occurs on earth while it is unfolding? Perhaps you welcome persecution during the Tribulation, because you think you would have the opportunity to earn for yourself a crown on the Bema Seat? I don't know. But the Blessed Hope of believers is our return of Jesus Christ - and that is Biblical. Your attacks (calling people liars, etc) on those who are hoping for what Christ Himself told us to watch for are reminds me of the rebuke Nathan gave to David in 2 Samuel 12.
7 Nathan said to David, “You are the man! Thus says the Lord, the God of Israel, ‘I anointed you king over Israel, and I delivered you out of the hand of Saul. 8 And I gave you your master's house and your master's wives into your arms and gave you the house of Israel and of Judah. And if this were too little, I would add to you as much more. 9 Why have you despised the word of the Lord, to do what is evil in his sight?"
It is a very good website - thanks for posting it.
"Waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ"
Titus 2:13
And there it is. We are all sinful, and decrepit, but the blood of Jesus saved us. We as we are, in our weakness He is made strong. We limp on, with our "crutch" of faith and hope. The are many who attempt to kick out that hope from beneath us, but our blessed hope is the imminent return of Jesus.
I don’t think the rapture is post-trib. Christ said he would cut short (amputate) that time of suffering for the sake of the elect. That doesn’t mean the 7 yr. period is cut short - just the persecution of the elect by antichrist. My point was that Wallvoord and Mayhue both stated that the pre-trib was not specifically taught by scripture. My other point is that those closest to the Apostles most likely had it correct - the church would be tested at the end by the persecution of antichrist. Unless I’m misunderstanding you, what of the Ante Nicene fathers views? There is a rapture. I believe it is between the 6 and 7 seals. Just before God’s Day of the Lord wrath. The first 5 ch. of Rev. are a warning to the churches of what is to come and to get ready for it - as is the Olivet Discourse. Why would Christ warn about it to the church if they would not experience it? I don’t think Christ was warning the nation of Israel as they will enter the 70th week in unbelief and not believe until (like Joseph’s brothers on their 2nd visit) Christ reveals Himself to them. Then they get it and then they mourn. Personally, I don’t think there will be many American Christians left as I believe America is coming under God’s judgement and I don’t think there will be many of us left to know which view - pre-trib or pre-wrath is correct. We’ll be trying to escape with our lives from the American jihad and Obama’s reeducation camps ;- ) The really important thing in all of this discussion is to stay on the cross and let Christ rule in our hearts and lives. I don’t like it much but the word witness is very closely associated with the word martyr. Anyway, God bless as you work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
A friendly discussion is profitable, but that’s not what we’re going to have if you are going to toss around words like “liar”.
Please provide me - politely - with the specific verse reference you would like me to respond to, if indeed you are interested in a response.
Thank you.
It's the time of Jacob's trouble ie Israel, not the time of trouble for the ekklesia.
Those who are protected are the 144,000 selected from the 12 tribes of Israel. The ekklesia has been off this earth for 3 1/2 years by then.
Claiming we are already in the time of the events of Revelation turns the Bible on it's head.
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