Posted on 02/26/2015 1:08:37 PM PST by Alex Murphy
It was a well-nigh universal trope of Reformation rhetoric that the Reformers were the catholics who had to defend orthodoxy and catholicity against the sectarianism of the Roman church.
Luther disputed the Catholic claim that obedience to Rome was the definition of catholicity, and disputed it on the basis of the universal testimony of the church (Unitive Protestantism, 65). Calvin defended the Reformers against the charge that they were schismatics: “Verily the wolves complain against the lambs” (quoted, 73). The 1559 French Confession distinguished the true church from “all other sects who call themselves the church” (quoted, 80), a thinly veiled allusion to Rome.
McNeill writes, “The Reformation was a revolt, not against the principle of unity and catholicity, but against the privileged and oppressive monarchy of Rome - an uprising not merely of national, but of catholic feeling, against what had become a localized and overcentralized imperialism in Christianity, which made true catholicity impossible” (86).
That this was more than a rhetorical maneuver is evident, albeit in an extreme form, in an exchange between Luther and Eck at the Leipzig Disputation (1519). McNeill summarizes:
For Luther, “Christianity was vastly wider than Romanism. Against Eck he cited the Greek Church as proof that the ‘rock’ passage in Matthew is not applicable to the Pope, whose connection with ‘My Church’ is with a section of it only. This argument Eck tried to dismiss with contempt: the Greeks, in separating from Rome, he said, became exiles from the faith of Christ. Luther insistently returned to the point, expressing the hope that Eck, ‘with Eccian modesty,’ will spare so many thousands of saints, since the Greek Church, though separated from Rome, has endured and will endure. Eck in turn, while he avoids condemning the Greek fathers, has little hope for the salvation of any in the modern East except a few who hold the Roman obedience (qui Romanam obedientiam tenent). . . . Eck’s expressions were calculated to confirm the differentiation that had arisen in Luther’s mind between ‘catholic church’ and ‘Roman obedience’” (66).
....For Luther, “Christianity was vastly wider than Romanism. Against Eck he cited the Greek Church as proof that the ‘rock’ passage in Matthew is not applicable to the Pope, whose connection with ‘My Church’ is with a section of it only. This argument Eck tried to dismiss with contempt: the Greeks, in separating from Rome, he said, became exiles from the faith of Christ. Luther insistently returned to the point, expressing the hope that Eck, ‘with Eccian modesty,’ will spare so many thousands of saints, since the Greek Church, though separated from Rome, has endured and will endure. Eck in turn, while he avoids condemning the Greek fathers, has little hope for the salvation of any in the modern East except a few who hold the Roman obedience (qui Romanam obedientiam tenent). . . . Eck’s expressions were calculated to confirm the differentiation that had arisen in Luther’s mind between ‘catholic church’ and ‘Roman obedience’”.
Yeah, good old Martin Luther. He violated all his solemn oaths, turned around and married a nun, and then said it was all the fault of the Catholic Church.
By the way, the Orthodox Church is in schism with Rome, but it has never been dismissed by the Catholic Church as unorthodox or as heretical. Luther, however, was another matter.
Roman church leaders act as if when they go into executive session, their decisions are binding on God in Heaven as well as the RCC on earth.
The problem is that millions of RCs are caught in a spiritual scheme where eternal souls are at stake and the landscape keeps being changed almost yearly.
Of course, the RCC is not the only (religious) organization of men to act similarly.
Take a very good look at Luther’s legacy. The meaning and ramifications of heresy becomes evident.
Correction: I believe it is the Roman Church who is in Schism, not the Orthodox.......
***Yeah, good old Martin Luther. He violated all his solemn oaths***
Of course! When a person is born again they leave their sinful lifestyles behind.
That’s Eck’s opinion, nothing more.
“By the way, the Orthodox Church is in schism with Rome, but it has never been dismissed by the Catholic Church as unorthodox or as heretical. Luther, however, was another matter.”
+1 to what Tex wrote.
I am reminded of the story of the Greek priest who told his congregation one day that an old friend would soon be visiting from England. A member of the congregation asked if he was Orthodox. The priest said, “No, he’s Anglican.”
The Congregation looked baffled so he explained, “He’s a Protestant.” Still looks of broad confusion... at last the priest says... “You know, like Roman Catholics.” which was followed by instant comprehension.
One of the falsehoods that Protestants push is to try to reduce the Catholic Church to only Rome. It comprises of over a billion faithful and over 5000 bishops and is spread throughout the world. It is not the "Roman church" but the CATHOLIC (Universal) Church.
The main question raised by the article is this: are the Greek Orthodox included in that number?
If they wish to be. They have always been invited.
As far as I am aware the Roman Church does not include the Orthodox when counting their sheep.
This information has been shared here many times almost as if forum readers don’t know that Catholic Church (Roman rite) headquarters are at the Vatican (Rome) headed by a pope and that this particular Catholic branch (capital C) IS commonly referred to as the Roman Catholic Church.
It’s a word game some RCs on FR insist on playing.
Catholic conservatives: A traditionalist avant-garde
The Rites of the Catholic Church [Catholic Caucus]
One and Many Churches (origins of the Church)
THE RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH -- There are many!
(Cardinal) Newman on Rites and Ceremonies
I’m aware of the Eastern Rite churches. I don’t think that’s what was being discussed though. I am fairly sure the original question pertained to Eastern Orthodoxy.
NRx is correct - the question pertained to Eastern / Greek Orthodoxy. You'll note how few Catholics were willing to answer that question, however.
Is that the question you wanted answered?
Ask an Eastern Orthodox if a Roman Catholic can receive communion in their church.
Hmmmm just wonder how many that are baptized (how membership is counted) are “practicing”papists? My guess is maybe 15percent
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